PDA

View Full Version : Live in or around London? Check this out...


StephenTazz
24-10-07, 17:03
Or just visiting friends or family?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/default.aspx

More back door politics by Labour, they drop Road Pricing now this...

I am somewhat miffed that the Euro 2 diesels as fitted to the majority of T4's are not listed on their exemption list.

I did expect this kind of thing happening, and I can see it spreading across the Country (and Europe) just like the Congestion charge has.

If we don't act now by 2010 anywhere inside the M25 London will be out of bounds for every diesel Transporter and Caravelle built from 1981 to the T5 (which can't run on RME Biodiesel or super clensing veg oil) - i.e the majority of all Transporters built in that period, not only jeopardising VW's credibility - i.e. the big claims they made for their diesels, but potentially the whole aftermarket industry built around (including the campervan specialists) it and alienating the very poeple that VW depend on for their future business - i.e you and me...

Meanwhile we can lobby Transport For London and our M.P.'s to raise the unladen weight limit for our "large" vans (i.e Transporters) and minibuses (i.e. Caravelles) - 4,000 potential voters can make a difference - right?

Thanks DJ Van for bringing this to my attention...

lardyb
24-10-07, 17:17
Am I right in thinking it will be 100 Per day to drive in the congestion/low emision zone
From TFLs web site

Paying the charge

Operators of vehicles which do not meet the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) emissions standards must pay the daily charge if they wish to drive in the zone.
Daily charges

* 200 for lorries, buses, and coaches and vehicles over 3.5 tonnes. This charge will apply from 4 February 2008
* 100 for minibuses below 5 tonnes and large vans, motor caravans, ambulances and similar vehicles below 3.5 tonnes. This charge will apply from October 2010

Use our compliance check tool to find out if you are affected.

Big Bad Bear
24-10-07, 18:52
WHooo WHOO check first before going off on oneI:I: I just entered my reg number and it came up not subject to LEZ and non compliant admititly I was worried as mine has the higher payload being the anniversary model but all is OKA:

Big Bad Bear
24-10-07, 18:55
WHooo WHOO check first before going off on oneI:I: I just entered my reg number and it came up not subject to LEZ and non compliant admititly I was worried as mine has the higher payload being the anniversary model but all is OKA:

Further information for 04/02/2008 Not subject to LEZ - Based on the information you have entered and information held by Transport for London (TfL), the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) does not apply to this vehicle. As long as the vehicle remains not subject to the LEZ the daily charge does not have to be paid for this vehicle when it is used in the Zone.

Emissions classification for these dates is based on the Vehicle Type and the age of the vehicle.

StephenTazz
24-10-07, 18:59
WHooo WHOO check first before going off on oneI:I: I just entered my reg number and it came up not subject to LEZ and non compliant admititly I was worried as mine has the higher payload being the anniversary model but all is OKA:

It's fine until 2010 - I checked my 1.9TD Umwelt - that is okay as well for now...

... I wonder what the likes of Ikea have to say about it - probably loose about 25% of their business overnight.

They built a ring road around Godalming high street, that is now a ghost town, sooo many failed small businesses and shops - I would suspect that this policy will have a similar impact on peoples lives in and around London and decimate the non franchised motor trade overnight, leaving countless skilled people on the scrap heap (with their motors), not to mention the impact on the franchises (we see loads of T4's and T3's - sorry Diamond - T25's).

reimoboy
24-10-07, 19:29
Now I live in London so naturally I'm worried. I entered my reg on tfl's website and true enough my camper will not be :ccompliant by 2010!! This is supposed to affect older diesel vehicles but my van is only 4 years old for heavens sake! You think I can pay 100/day charge, I think not:mad:

StephenTazz
24-10-07, 19:36
Now I live in London so naturally I'm worried. I entered my reg on tfl's website and true enough my camper will not be :ccompliant by 2010!! This is supposed to affect older diesel vehicles but my van is only 4 years old for heavens sake! You think I can pay 100/day charge, I think not:mad:

It does beg the question of whether these people that dream up these schemes actually live among us :eek:...

My problem is that the cars that fail the MOT smoke test most are the Euro 3 and Euro 4 school run MPV's (often off then scale)... VOSA have this information via computerisation...

... just tested my van with no special preperation or treatment (honest)

MOT limit = 3.00

My van averaged 1.37 on the third flooring out of a max of six.

...

leviticus18_23
25-10-07, 06:54
But to be fair... have you been to central london lately?

you wouldn't want to drive there anyway as the traffic is rubbish and there is nowhere to :c park. It sucks big dog's :c

the shops in central london will be stuffed and it'll be less effort to buy your stuff off the internet - which is pretty much what I do now anyway.

I suppose we'll all have to get those things that black cabs have fitted (that don't work). That'll be hilarious. It'll reduce the amount of particulates, but let the toxic gases roam free... LOL:

Let's face Ken (and his boys) don't give a toss about anyone but themselves... they are on the gravy train and loving it!

bobley
25-10-07, 07:29
My T4 97 1.9TD will be non compliant from 2010 but I can still drive my splitty inside the M25:rolleyes:

realyweely
25-10-07, 08:53
Couldnt the Magna Carta be thrown at these people "Free movement on the Kings Highway" or does that only refer to horses and people?

realyweely
25-10-07, 08:59
I also cant find any exemption for Disabled. THATS going to cause a riot

bigcat
25-10-07, 11:47
It must be sooo easy to get up, go to the tube station, get the sardine tin to work.
Go home on it and sit in suburbia with a computer and a t.v and do &^k until you retire.
Whilst those with interests, sports and hobbies or simply the desire to travel and enjoy "this green and pleasant ? land", get scrwd over by this crazy government.
Jeez all we'll have left to look forward to will be standing on the scales, wearing a govt. issue (once you've paid for it) hi viz jacket, trying to reach the locked drinks cabinet full of drinks in tiny measures which cost 199% in tax ( or 10p eh Baz ?), trying to get pi$$ed enough not to drive the van you can't afford to anyway.

Nurse...NURSE...Where's my medication ?

go-ferret
25-10-07, 12:48
Couldnt the Magna Carta be thrown at these people "Free movement on the Kings Highway" or does that only refer to horses and people?

It is free - as long as you pay for it.

I quite liked the recent dictate that suggested a motor vehicle exclusion zone around the olympic site in st. ratford. luckily i live about 3 miles outside the zone they have proposed but what would happen if i lived within it. it's an incredibly densely populated residential area. would you have to pay to get off your driveway?

mental bureaucratic decisions. :(

Big Bad Bear
25-10-07, 16:28
S**t I feel such a ******** I: non compliant means it will be charged DOH:c as of 07/07/08 I aint gonna be able to get off my drive :mad::bhd:bhd:bhd Bloody Red Ken I really hate what you done to London, red routes, bus lanes, congestion charge and now this :c No wonder so many britains are still leaving the country for A life in Spain

bobley
25-10-07, 18:36
If you read the wording it states that Motor Caravans are only included if the GVW is between 2.5 and 3.5 Tonnes, bingo I thought... until I checked our spec... the GVW of a 1Tonne panel van (on which our Reimo is based) is 2575kg:( but the GVW of an 800 Special is 2380kg... so if you live in the zone you should convert your T4 800 special into a Motor Caravan!!

The other thing I heard a while ago is that a manufacturer under certain circumstances can de-rate a vehicle. There was a letter about it in MMM where a driver needed to reduce the GVW of his coachbuilt camper so he could drive it on a particular driving license.. the manufacturer did it for him but it left him with a very small allowable payload... I'm guessing that most of you guys driving surf bus type vehicles etc wont actually need the full 1070 or 1270 kg payload??? I think we need to approach VW and see what gives?

Alternatively if VW cant de-rate our vehicles axle weights then we should ask them if they plan to offer an upgrade kit. There are plenty of small UK powertrain test houses and developemnt outfits would could develop a kit but it wouldn't be cheap..

bobley
25-10-07, 18:38
Oh yeah, I just though I would mention that our T4 Kombi is already registered as a motorcaravan even though its actually a Kombi with a pop top roof and set of curtains! Its only been a true Camper for the last 6 weeks of its 10 yr life!

bobley
25-10-07, 19:06
Yep, you can derate a vehicle quite easily. I've contacted a firm called http://www.svtech.co.uk/ who specialise in this... I'll let you know how much its going to cost....

Get converting!!

Big Bad Bear
25-10-07, 19:47
bobley let me know if you find anything to stop having to pay this charge mate, even if it means spending thousands converting it now rather than as planned over a couple of years it would be worth it to stuff Livingston (Money grabbing )

bobley
25-10-07, 19:50
No worries, I'll let you know asap.

On the motor home conversion front - I dont think you need to do that much. I reckon a R&R bed, ikea cupboard and camping cooker should do it...

StephenTazz
25-10-07, 21:03
Am I right in thinking it will be 100 Per day to drive in the congestion/low emision zone
From TFLs web site

Paying the charge

Daily charges

* 100 for minibuses below 5 tonnes and large vans, motor caravans, ambulances and similar vehicles below 3.5 tonnes. This charge will apply from October 2010

Use our compliance check tool to find out if you are affected.

Why is this wording so deliberately ambiguous?

The unladen weight of a 7 seat or 8 seater Caravelle is just a smidge more than my old Touran and both are classed as Cars for MOT purposes (the 9 seater is classed as a minibus) - so by rights the same rules from the Construction and Use Regulations and the Road traffic Act apply (The MOT being a vastly watered down version of the Construction and Use regulations).

Q) When is a car not a car?

A) When it's a 7 or 8 seater Caravelle LOL: (apparently).

Is a Multivan a Motor Caravan or a Caravelle (car)? Can a 5 seeter ex AA van be classed as a car?

One rule for one etc, etc - they cannot and should not have it their way.

I suspect that the Road Haulage Association (a certain Steve Norris - ex MP and Conservative nominee for Mayor the first time round - being their chairman who wears a Transport For London hat, I believe) flexed their muscle concerning the Euro 2 exempt vehicles (all light goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes that emit considerably more than any well maintained VW Transporter - Euro 2 or not - ever will).

Also, I suspect the hush hush approach by TFL on this has caught everyone - even VW Renault and Mercedes (all made Euro 2 compliant light vans) - off guard. (So what happened to Light and Medium vans then TFL???)

I thought the EU was first and foremost about social justice - what sort of justice is this? So far as Motability is concerned they can't have thought it through - given that many T4 Caravelles are adapted to carry disabled people - I can't see them upping the mobility allowance just for people living in and around London.

Surely it would be wiser to raise the unladen weight limit in line with Construction and Use so all MOT class IV vehicles (i.e up to 3 tonnes) are exempt and drop the motor caravan and similar vehicles definition altogether.

Natural wastage and the MOT will see off all offending vehicles in time leaving those that are loved and cherished (of any make) left for their owners and enthusiasts to enjoy - it's just common sense, as it has always been - there is no need to force the issue with this draconion meddling.

Fundamentally I agree that emissions need to be controlled, but how do you stop a cow farting?

This really has pi**ed me off!!!:GL

reimoboy
26-10-07, 09:33
Has anyone contacted VW on this issue? I will try and speak to someone at VW HQ on Monday to see if they can shed some light:confused:

StephenTazz
26-10-07, 14:48
Has anyone contacted VW on this issue? I will try and speak to someone at VW HQ on Monday to see if they can shed some light:confused:

I'm gathering my thoughts, just in case I go off on one!!!

reimoboy
26-10-07, 16:20
Know what you mean, perhaps a cup of herbal tea before making the call:rolleyes:

dj van
26-10-07, 19:01
i phoned on Monday Vw customer services and local dealer
The official line from them was my 03 2.5tdi wasnt built with emission regs in mind and therefore it can be converted a great cost 2-3k is being banded about ,but it wont drive the same or run as good and the lady at Vw told me to buy a new one as mines out of date !
I was hoping mad and still am ,most dealers are unaware that they are selling good stock that will be no good in London in 2 1/2 yrs time

Ive got a bit of chasing up to do ,as two companies think they can help and do mods to get you within limits ,still wondering if thats a con or not ?

bobley
26-10-07, 21:08
2-3K = price to fit a petrol engine!!

I'm in discussions now with SVtech. They were a little puzzled but it looks like the derating could work.

BOARD PAUL
26-10-07, 21:29
National no numberplate day?:confused: that would cause them so chaos for once. The way its going you wont be able to go anywhere unless its via public transport. Then obviously the price of that will sky rocket.

Big Bad Bear
27-10-07, 15:14
Think this topic should be kept near the top as this is going to affect everyone of us :mad: eventually, has anyone tried taking down the reg numbers of newer vans ie: T5's advertised in autotrader or such, these still come up non compliant by 2010hsy: Anyone know how to go about getting one of them Prime minister petition's started R: Or can we get enough Vehicles together to smash into the Mayors office and make them realise it's not just big companys that will be affected by this, but enthusiastic people Who unlike Ken Livingston actually have a life and have spent thousands of pounds on something that is not only practical and of a great interest to theirselves, Which if this carries on will destroy us :c How long before someone realise's we are being dictated to, after all saddam hussien was a dictator? wonder if Bush will send a air or ground force attack first Rasp:
I for one cant wait to get my engine up an running so as to sell it quick before Joe public realise's these vans will be worthless to anyone living in or around London.


Would like to know Jimbos view on this subject as it will affect him aswell

leviticus18_23
27-10-07, 18:03
I saw the posters about Ken's LEZzing zone and they had lorries and coaches on them so I wasn't too bothered. Now I am really not happy. :( I hate Ken.

I have some questions...

Does anyone know what the limits are for PM10 etc when the limits first come out and again in 2010?

How much PM10 etc do the T4s spit out?

Would it be possible to get some chipping done to improve performance and reduce emissions to within acceptable limits?

Is this going to be an expensive scam like the stuff for black cabs?

Is the easier answer to get a petrol engine? Or a Passat estate?

:(:c

reimoboy
28-10-07, 12:30
What really annoys me is that I hadn't even heard of this LEZ until I saw it on here. No-one else I have spoken has heard of it either, so definate lack of public awareness:mad: - this is far too sneaky for my liking

leviticus18_23
28-10-07, 17:52
I'd heard about it, but I thought it only applied to things you can't drive on a car licence... it came as a bit of a shock! :eek:

dj van
28-10-07, 21:40
My mates just bought a fleet of 07 reg Ford Rangers and they wont be able to drive up here in 2010 ,hes seeking advice from Ford ,hes fuming,he only changes his fleet every ten years.Salesman he bought from dint know what lez was either
Ive spoken to dozens of MOT stations and VW dealers they know sweet fa about this LEZ!
VW dealers just say call Customer services in Milton Keynes !!!

More backdoor labour ********!!!

reimoboy
29-10-07, 08:51
Are the government going to compensate all those who in 2010 will have hundreds or thousands of pounds knocked off the value of their vehicles as no-one within the M25 will buy them? Like :c they will!!!!

reimoboy
29-10-07, 08:54
Can admin please make this a sticky so that everyone is aware of this very important issue. Thanks Simon

Essgee
29-10-07, 09:25
I'm all for trying to lessen our impact on the environment - and sometimes that does mean we must find ways of discouraging peole from driving through city centres so much. I think what's annoying about this scheme is the way it seems so disporportionate. Globally, climate change is our biggest enemy but this scheme scheme won't touch all those millions of cars that pump out lots more C02 that our vans. In terms of particulates, I doubt they'll listen if you try to explain you're running on much cleaner veg oil either.

The other big issue for me is the way initiatives such as this encourage us to just junk things that were made only a few years ago and buy new ones. A lot of the environmental destruction inflicted on the earth is generated by the endless consumer cycles of buying stuff, chucking it away and then buying more stuff. The amount of energy, resources and pollution that go into building a brand new van - even one with a very low emission engine - is huge. But its people in Poland or China that have to suffer that, not those that live in central London!

reimoboy
29-10-07, 09:42
Well saidA:

reimoboy
29-10-07, 15:18
Motorhomes under 2.5 tonnes gross weight are exempt from the Vez .My Registration document says the unladen weight of my 888 special is 1673kg. Add to this the max allowed payload of 800kg gives a total of 2473kg ( 2.473 tonnes). Its close but seems I may get away with it:gl

StephenTazz
29-10-07, 20:30
i phoned on Monday Vw customer services and local dealer
The official line from them was my 03 2.5tdi wasnt built with emission regs in mind...

At the time of the TDI launch (and the 1.9TD) I recall VW making big claims about their environmental friendliness - Euro 2 at the time.

Fact - early T5's are only Euro 3 up to 12.05 and Euro 4 from 01.06 (we are now approaching Euro 5).

By law, VW must provide a full range of parts for their vehicles for at least 10 years after production ends - they actually supply parts up to 15 years and beyond in some cases. With the youngest T4 only being 4 years old this can not be in their interest either.

Some definitions:

Passenger Car

- constructed or adapted to carry no more than five passengers in addition to the driver (so that counts out all the 7 - seater MPV's, then)
- has a minimum Design Gross Weight not exceeding 2500kg
- is not a Goods Vehicle

Dual Purpose Vehicle

- constructed or adapted to carry both passengers and goods of any description
- has an Unladen Weight of no more than 2040kg
- constructed or adapted so that driving power from the engine is or can be transmitted to all wheels or is permanently fitted with a rigid roof with the area behind the driver permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats for two or more passengers and have at least a window present on each side of at least 1850cm2 and a rear window of at least 770cm2. (all the MPV's and Kombi's and Caravelles live here then)

All these vehicles are eligible for the Class IV MOT test for:

Passenger Cars including 3 wheeled vehicles of more than 450kg Unladen Weight, Taxis, Minibuses and Ambulances with up to 12 passenger seats, Goods Vehicles not exceeding 3000kg Design Gross Weight, Motor Caravans and Dual Purpose Vehicles.

So where did 1,205 kg unladen weight come from?

Just been looking at the future 2009 Euro 5 and 6 legislation - emissions laws are forever tightening for new vehicles for light duty diesels i.e cars up to 2500kg (category M) and cars over 2500kg and light vans (catagory N - the T4 being class II and III) and heavy duty diesels (trucks and buses) but these limits cannot be applied retrospectively on anything older than Euro 4 diesels - so why is it being imposed on us by these TFL bigwigs in this way - it never has before, relying on time and nature?

Also by 2009 all diesel fuel will be sulphur free...

reimoboy
30-10-07, 14:11
Just a quick post to get this back to the first page in case anyone has missed it. It has the potential of affecting many of you guys:grphg

StephenTazz
30-10-07, 16:00
Been delving deeper - the legislation was changed earlier this year to bring us into line with the new EU directives coming on stream.

However, a study was completed in 2005 showing that a light goods vehicle -EURO II (not EURO 2 - that's us and they are different standards) actually produced more particulate matter (PM's) emissions at continuous slow speeds. Perhaps it's not rocket science to us in the trade that any idling diesel whatever emissions standards are applied soot up at tickover.

Are we objecting to the level of charges or the Low Emissions Zone itself?

reimoboy
30-10-07, 16:09
Motorhomes under 2.5 tonnes gross weight are exempt from the Vez .My Registration document says the unladen weight of my 888 special is 1673kg. Add to this the max allowed payload of 800kg gives a total of 2473kg ( 2.473 tonnes). Its close but seems I may get away with it:gl

Stephen as you are the man with the tech knowledge am I correct in saying I will be exempt. Is the max payload exactly 800kg or have they rounded it down potentially putting me over 2.5t gvw

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 16:46
Stephen as you are the man with the tech knowledge am I correct in saying I will be exempt. Is the max payload exactly 800kg or have they rounded it down potentially putting me over 2.5t gvw

Hi reimoboy click on the link and enter your reg no and vehicle make and if it says not subject to LEZ your OK otherwise its Non compliant meaning it gonna cost ya big bucks to drive within the M25

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 16:46
Hi reimoboy click on the link and enter your reg no and vehicle make and if it says not subject to LEZ your OK otherwise its Non compliant meaning it gonna cost ya big bucks to drive within the M25

Damn forgot the link LOL

http://lezlondon.tfl.gov.uk/lez/vehicles/default.aspx

go-ferret
30-10-07, 16:51
J:Not subject to LEZ.:D

(Well - it does run on peterill!!)

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 16:59
AWWW go-ferret you CHEATER

StephenTazz
30-10-07, 17:18
Stephen as you are the man with the tech knowledge am I correct in saying I will be exempt. Is the max payload exactly 800kg or have they rounded it down potentially putting me over 2.5t gvw

I think this is what they call a grey area - like inside the M25 I:

I think I'm getting the bigger picture now - this is Europe wide, but TFL has decided to be the trailblazer with this unrealistic charge.

I'm firing letters off to TFL for clarification and to state our case, to VW to explore the possibilities of getting our vans "replated" to 800's (if this is the case in view of their change of use from goods vehicles to private vehicles) and to the Department of Transport.

This is when the Owners Club will come into it's own...

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 17:23
I think this is what they call a grey area - like inside the M25 I:

I think I'm getting the bigger picture now - this is Europe wide, but TFL has decided to be the trailblazer with this unrealistic charge.

I'm firing letters off to TFL for clarification and to state our case, to VW to explore the possibilities of getting our vans "replated" to 800's (if this is the case in view of their change of use from goods vehicles to private vehicles) and to the Department of Transport.

This is when the Owners Club will come into it's own...

Have just sent Dave a email asking to make this a sticky?
Surprised Jimbo hasnt had a say in this as would have thought this will sffect him :confused:

reimoboy
30-10-07, 19:11
Hi reimoboy click on the link and enter your reg no and vehicle make and if it says not subject to LEZ your OK otherwise its Non compliant meaning it gonna cost ya big bucks to drive within the M25

Did that the other day and it said my van wont be compliant, but taking that to mean as a van, but it is now motorcaravan:confused: meaning it can have a higher gross vehicle weight of up 2.5 tones

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 19:34
reimo did you get the logbook changed to show that?

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 19:39
Coz sure i read on that website something about converted campers being included R: Hang on

It will also include other specialist vehicles that are derived from lorries and vans including; motorised horse boxes, breakdown and recovery vehicles, refuse collection vehicles, gritters, sweepers, concrete mixers, tippers, removals lorries, fire engines, motor caravans, ambulances and large hes (over 2.5 tonnes) are also included. so unless you get the GVW down you gonna pay:eek:

reimoboy
30-10-07, 19:41
reimo did you get the logbook changed to show that?

Yes I did. On V5 bodystyle is classed as motor caravan, however model/type is listed as transporter 88bhp spl swb - spl obviously meaning standard panel van so don't know which tfl will take it to be.:confused:

Now I have just been under the bonnet to find the grossvehicle weight (the 1st figure under the vin number) and oh :c it says 2510kg and not the 2473kg i thought it was!!:bhd Looks like i need to start panicing again!

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 19:52
HMMMM methinks this gonna cause a lotta headaches

reimoboy
30-10-07, 19:54
Headaches, I've got a chuffin' migraine now:eek:

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 20:01
Hey Reimo if it make you feel any better i just spent five hundred quid on a new head gaskets and tensioner going to lay out about 400 to a mechanic for fitting and sorting to have to sell it now coz of this:bhd:bhd:bhd:bhd:bhd

reimoboy
30-10-07, 20:11
Don't rush into selling it I hopeful we will find a way around it somehow:ILU:

Big Bad Bear
30-10-07, 20:25
:gl:gl heres keeping it all crossed

Big Bad Bear
31-10-07, 16:52
Get Back to the Top with yer

reimoboy
31-10-07, 17:12
Yeh, we need to keep this in focus guys (now where's my bluetac, I'll stick up top myself!)

RAD
31-10-07, 18:08
Umm, just read this.

This is Ok when at the parents, in Essex, but not good for me when at home in Middlesex.

Choices, get a T4, leave it parked at P's and have 2 motors or get the Petrol version.

I hate TFL sometimes. The other 'alf got told by Peugeot when she went to look at a new car.

Will have to research more before i part with my (Still without one!)

Big Bad Bear
31-10-07, 18:39
Rad the point is why should we have to make alterations to our life because of TFL this is SOOOOOOOOOO WrOOOONGhsy:hsy:hsy:

leviticus18_23
01-11-07, 10:36
Just a thought...

If you have lowered your van by 40... 50... 60mm or whatever, wouldn't this reduce the amount of weight you could carry?

Therefore, shouldn't that bring you in under the gross weight limit?

I really really don't want to part with my van... I assumed I was going to be buried in it... :(

Still, I have seen some nice Passat estates. :eek:

StephenTazz
04-11-07, 13:57
All letters posted now (re Euro 3 T4's etc,etc).

damo
04-11-07, 15:22
This is a problem thats been troubling me for a few months when I found out about this LEZ ******. Somehow looking out the way TFL introduced the congestion charge into west london I dont think they will care at all about people like us with our treasured T4 vans, Now do I hang on a while or sell my van while I still can, All noN compliant vehicles are going to be worthless in a years time when the LEZ is up and running AND THE WORD IS OUT.
Whos going to buy a van in the SE of in england if it will cost you a 100 if you go inside the m25.

Livingston = C#NT lets hope he gets hit by a bendy bus:c:c:c:c:c:c:c:c

StephenTazz
09-11-07, 20:58
Has the Low Emissions Zone site been closed down - I can't seem to access it.?

reimoboy
10-11-07, 08:55
Has the Low Emissions Zone site been closed down - I can't seem to access it.?

Seems ok today?

StephenTazz
07-12-07, 18:03
Just to keep you updated...

...so far I have had favourable responses from VW and The Department of Transport regarding my (our) concerns about TFL's Low Emissions Zone.

The Department of Transport have ordered the Mayor of London's office to give me a detailed reply to address the issues I raised in my letter.

... watch this space.

reimoboy
07-12-07, 21:26
Your efforts seem to be paying off then Stephen! Keep us informedT:

Simon

ERU
07-12-07, 22:30
Not subject to LEZ - Based on the information you have entered and information held by Transport for London (TfL), the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) does not apply to this vehicle. As long as the vehicle remains not subject to the LEZ the daily charge does not have to be paid for this vehicle when it is used in the Zone.

Emissions classification for these dates is based on the Vehicle Type and the age of the vehicle.
Cool as I live 'just' inside the M25 i.e. Uxbridge :cool:

Burgy
07-12-07, 23:31
As long as the vehicle remains not subject to the LEZ the daily charge does not have to be paid for this vehicle when it is used in the Zone.


You think that is going to last!!

Rod_vw
08-12-07, 18:25
For what it's worth, there is a petition running to request exemption from the LEZ for Motor Homes.

Maybe it's worth adding a few names.

Petition is at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/

Rod.

Jurasik
08-12-07, 18:32
Even though I live 120miles from london, I have signed this petition. If London can get away with it, how long do you think that the other major cities & conurbations will take to copy it?
Still, I think that once all items in the city suddenly skyrocket in price, due to the massively increased cost of delivering everything into london, then Red Ken may `think again'.
Another knock on effect of this idiot tax, is that some hauliers may decide to move all goods into london using smaller vehicles. This will create more congestion, as there will be more vehicles on the road. LOL:LOL:LOL:

reimoboy
10-12-07, 11:44
Just signed petition

George Martin
10-12-07, 16:04
To achieve compliance involves bringing the T4 Euro 2 engines up to Euro 3 spec. by fitting a special exhaust.

Currently the older London Fairway/TX1 taxis with Nissan engines and Metrocabs with Ford engines are going through a similar conversion process.
After 30 June 2008 these older taxis will not be licenced if they do not meet Euro 3 standards. The current cost of fitting these special exhausts is about 2000. The whole exercise is a waste of time and money because in 3/4 years time these older taxis will be worn out and scrapped then replaced by Euro 4 compliant TX4 taxis.

So from October 2010 if you live in or plan to visit London the options are:-

1. Pay 100 per day plus 8 if you enter the Congestion Zone
2. Bring your T4 up to Euro 3 spec.
3. Upgrade to a T5 which is Euro 4 compliant.
4. Emigrate to a more car-friendly country.




George

Towely
10-12-07, 19:53
Was speaking to a friend who works for a transport company with plenty of T4 and T5 experience, he had obviously heard about this but had no idea it effected so many.

Not sure if this has already been covered but apparently certain types of cummings? (I think) engines used by most of London's red buses will be non compliant. However, the Government have decided to make an exception to this particular engine so they can get away with it! It would obviously screw up London's public transport and cost to much to convert all, so they just decide they can ignore it! Can you believe that? Have they really thought this all through? Unbelievable.

timboukvw
13-12-07, 22:12
Not Sure i'm barking upo the right tree so correct me if i'm wrong. I've just been reading and found this.


All other vehicles with engines on the LEC Eligible Engines List, but which do not qualify for an RPC, will need to obtain a LEC. This can be obtained from VOSA following a successful inspection and smoke test. The Eligible Engines List shows the smoke limit the engine must meet, which will be less than 0.8m-1, or the smoke mark value declared by the manufacturer if this is higher.
The smoke opacity limits for both the LEC and RPC are stricter than the standard Ministry of Transport smoke test, and the ability of older vehicles to pass this test will depend upon their condition and maintenance. Vehicles which fail this test will not be issued with a certificate, and will need to take other action to comply with the Low Emission Zone.

RPCs and LECs will need to be renewed annually. The required test can be scheduled at the same time as your vehicle's annual test.

VOSA will be able to accept LEC bookings from 20 August 2007 and will start conducting tests from 3 September 2007. For further information on obtaining a LEC please visit the VOSA website.


Does this apply to t4's?

StephenTazz
14-12-07, 12:02
LEZ update.

Transport For London have replied to my letter...

...good news for 7 and 8 seater SWB Caravelle owners, they are exempt due to my query, because they will be classed as large passenger cars from 2009.

Still not clear about 6 seater Multivans, and thus by definition other T4 Motor Caravans...

Watch this space...

Jurasik
14-12-07, 12:11
If a caravelle is exempt, then by virture of the fact that this is a T4 with seats, then a T4 must also be exempt. I cannot see how they can get around it?

StephenTazz
14-12-07, 18:13
I reckon any T4 with it's chassis number starting WV2 (i.e Kombi's, including ex AA Vans and their ilk, Caravelles and any camper conversion based on the window) will eventually be exempt because they will be classed with Large Passenger Cars (euro class M1 from 2009), if the case is made for them, which is my next step.

Euro class M1 includes all passenger vehicles up to 9 seats, so lwb Caravelles should also be exempt (apart from the 12 seater ones).

WV1 chassis numbers are all non window vans and as such are classed as Medium Vans (euro class N1-11 which Large Passenger Cars are currently grouped with) that are not Euro 3 compliant are unlikely to pass the VOSA test, without modification.

I will approach VW's Technical department to see if a kit can be produced for the 1.9TD and whether simply changing the Cat on a TDI is sufficient to acheive compliance at considerably less than 2K. The 1.9TD was dropped from the UK range at the beginning of 2002, and I suspect this was the reason why.

However, Motor Caravans with a plated weight of under 2500kg - so that's any Motor Caravan (that's registered as a Motor Caravan) based on 1.9TD 800 Specials and Euro 2 2.5 TDI 888 Specials should also be exempt, but 1000kg vans are plated at 2575kg so they will not be exempt!!!

Perhaps it's possible to get these vans replated as 800kg vans!!!

So to sum up the state of play at the moment - I will be lobbying hard to get the 2500kg goal post moved to 3000kg, so all T4's and most T5's will not be hit by any future tweaks to the rules...

TFL pointed out that they are solely targeting PM10 emissions, which are invisible and are normally burnt off by hot exhaust fumes - with the emphasis on hot. Now to get a diesel hot you need to thrash it, to put it crudely, and how many school run mums get the chance to do that, hence my point about stored particules being released to atmosphere at MOT time, making MOT stations pollution hot spots and all the ramifications of that...

Jurasik
14-12-07, 18:19
Mine is Ex AA with chassis WV2. Go to it StephenTazz T:T:

StephenTazz
14-12-07, 18:51
Mine is Ex AA with chassis WV2. Go to it StephenTazz T:T:

My contact at TFL appreciates all considered argument, so I fancy my chances...

Anyway, consultation will continue well after implementation in Feb 2008, so that gives us two years!

Some of you may have noticed that most of my posts have been taken off - I've been away adding pictures and updating them so excuse me for asking

Jurasik is your ex-AA OGD Euro 2 or OGE Euro 3 compliant?

These are production codes printed on your data sticker inside the front cover of the service book or behind the fusebox.

Jurasik
14-12-07, 19:19
Sorry, not a clue. I didn't get a service book & it's a bit dark to go rooting around behind the main fuse box now. Does the fusebox move BTW?
I will have a look at the next earliest opportunity. (hopefully tomorrow!)
My V5 does say vehicle class as M1 & weight in service as 1809kg.
So it does look good for ex AA vans. Mind you it is being converted to a camper, so I don't know if that will change the classification.

Big Bad Bear
14-12-07, 19:28
Just gotta say Stephen you are doing a top class job Fella Keep it up A:A:A: T:T:T:

StephenTazz
15-12-07, 06:00
Will check my V5 because my camper is a DIY conversion based on a WV1 van chassis but reregistered with DVLA as a Motor Caravan.

Inservice Weight, I guess, is Kerbside or Unladen Weight plus the weight of the average driver (which eats into the payload, incidently) and has nothing to do with the weights etched on the chassis plate.

As TFL are using DVLA's database then all T3 and T4 based diesel campers should be exempt, even the non cat 1.9 and 2.4 na's - it's just the home builds like mine that are doubtful.

Jurasik
28-12-07, 23:52
just done the checking thingy on Tfl website. It says that mine is not subject to the Lez in 2008 & is compliant in 2010. I can only sumise that this is because:
1. it is classed as a diesel CAR on the V5
2. it originally had 5 seats & side windows. The number of seats will be back at 5 once the RnR bed is in.

I think once 2012 arrives, my T4 will not be compliant. If other cities take this on board, it is going to be very bad.....

Big Bad Bear
29-12-07, 11:13
Hi just checked back on tfl's site, and has now changed to what it said before ie: before it said non compliant by June 2008 now says oct 2010? any ideas why this has changed or are they finally listening to the likes of Steven I: any ways happy as punch coz now have more time T:

junglegusset2
30-12-07, 23:29
Somehow this has found it's way onto page 2 of 'General T4 Chat'.

StephenTazz
01-01-08, 11:44
Somehow this has found it's way onto page 2 of 'General T4 Chat'.

Glad you're all keeping the thread alive - I've now got round to checking my van's V5 (and found that the MOT is due, phew)...

... it was originally a 800 Special panel van, converted by me to a 5 seater camper (with a Variotech seat and lap belts - shhh! a compromise, I know, if anyone asks!). I informed DVLA who updated the record to Motor Caravan, changing the classification (box A1 on the V5) from N to M, meaning it is now classed as a passenger vehicle and therefore exempt.

It's taxable weight is 2320kg, different to the design gross weight of 2380kg, and therefore exempt, as it falls under the 2500kg threshold.

StephenTazz
01-01-08, 11:49
:wzd I have just checked the van and it is exempt.

:jmpg

RAD
01-01-08, 17:15
Right I dont yet have one cos I am studying this thread carefully as I live inside the zone.

I am 25 in March, Insurance goes down loads, so am looking at my options.

Can anyone tell me what is excluded, i know I can get a petrol, but I want a diesel.

Jurasik
01-01-08, 18:02
I would say, your best bet would be to look at any T4's that take your fancy, then before buying, check the tfl website, with the reg number of the van.
That way you can see for yourself if the van you are interested in is exempt or not.

bobley
01-01-08, 18:47
Right I dont yet have one cos I am studying this thread carefully as I live inside the zone.

I am 25 in March, Insurance goes down loads, so am looking at my options.

Can anyone tell me what is excluded, i know I can get a petrol, but I want a diesel.

Basically you will need either a farely late TDi model (which has EU3 emmisions standards) or a motorcaravan based on a "reduced payload" vehicle. The 800 special Van is such a vehicle (800kg payload). Kombis are also available in 800kg versions but alas they only have the smaller engine options. I'm still trying to work out if I can downrate my 1000kg Kombi based motorcaravan (which currently has a GVW of 2700) to an 800 spec (which has a GVW of 2430kg and hence cuts underneath the 2500kg limit for motorcaravans.

RAD
01-01-08, 20:20
So I need to buy a 800 Special, and then convert it and register it as a Camper. Or just buy a T5?

Has anyone got a T4 800 currently registered as a Camper so I can check it out for myself?

chroma andy
03-01-08, 10:45
this legislation is a load of rubbish...my T4 westfalia is caught by the LEZ in 2010 even though it is no different to a caravelle...I am sure that someone out there will start making a diesel partculate filter for the T4 to enable it to comply with Euro III and IV standards

hallii
03-01-08, 19:30
When election time comes round ask you candidate how he/she voted on this, I ask my MP and Local Councillors similar embarassing (for them) questions and some choose not to answer. Nuff said?

G

bobley
04-01-08, 10:06
EXCELLENT NEWS!!!

I've just spoken to http://www.svtech.co.uk/ and they say that to derate my T4 from ~2600kg GVW to a LEZ beating 2495kg (limit is 2500kg) the fee is 50+VAT!!! No mechanical mods are required.

Jobs a guddun, breathe normally again!

RubberBiker
04-01-08, 11:11
...No mechanical mods are required...


What exactly do they do? Is this just a paperwork exercise? Maybe a new load rating sticker to go in the drivers door shut?

bobley
04-01-08, 11:23
What exactly do they do? Is this just a paperwork exercise? Maybe a new load rating sticker to go in the drivers door shut?

Yep, I think his exact words were "plate and certification only". Dont forget you need to have the vehicle classed as "Motorcaravan" on your V5 for this to apply so leave a campstove and sleeping bag in the back at all times!!

floaty
04-01-08, 13:37
Would this work for my ex AA 5 seater "MPV" ?
I will be getting a multivan bed/seat thing in there soon as well.

bobley
04-01-08, 13:51
Once you've got your bed/seat installed you could try changing the vehicle type at your local DVLA office (or perhaps you can just send the form away??). I dont think it costs anything to make the change to Motorcaravan?

You may need to add some sort of wardrobe or cooker unit to really make it look pucka but you can buy removeable kits from Reimo and Calypso so you dont need to do anything permanent - and at the end of the day such a unit will only add value to your T4 and be useful too!

mickeyd
04-01-08, 19:38
I checked mine with the website a couple of months ago and it said it was ok, just checked again and now its non complient from 2010.:eek: Do they have a clue what they are on about

bobley
19-01-08, 07:38
Morning, I just thought I'd drag this back up (surely we need this to be a sticky). I got the invoice from SVTech this week. They are ready to send the new plate and certificate once I've paid 58.75. Alas I will never see the results as I'm selling my T4 today and I'll get the stuff sent to the new owner in Edinburgh (they will be getting their own LEZ in the ner future I think).

StephenTazz
19-01-08, 14:02
I have written again to the top tech guru at TFL to clarify these issues, I was of the understanding that all group M vehicles, including ex AA vans, were exempt:dunno:

midiwife
21-01-08, 11:57
i phoned on Monday Vw customer services and local dealer
The official line from them was my 03 2.5tdi wasnt built with emission regs in mind and therefore it can be converted a great cost 2-3k is being banded about ,but it wont drive the same or run as good and the lady at Vw told me to buy a new one as mines out of date !
I was hoping mad and still am ,most dealers are unaware that they are selling good stock that will be no good in London in 2 1/2 yrs time

Ive got a bit of chasing up to do ,as two companies think they can help and do mods to get you within limits ,still wondering if thats a con or not ?

Hi DJ Van,

I'm trying to source an Ex AA and am looking at 03 plates to try to avoid the LEZ charging issues. Last evening I typed in the 03 plate number of a handy local AA van (still in service) and it came up as Euro lll compliant, i.e, OK fo 2010 to 2012. I'm guessing you've found the same to be true of yours since this post? The TfL compliancy checker seems to be up and running again so it should be better news for you.

Kind regards.

Michael
23-01-08, 11:46
I read about this in the Caravan Club magazine this week (not mine - belongs to a neighbour!). I have a 2.4 Caravelle (1996), which I converted and reclassified as a motor caravan two years ago. I spoke with TFL yesterday, and after 2010 I will not be able to drive into London without paying the LEZ charge as apparently I am only Euro 1 compliant. My brother lives right on the edge of the zone, and I will need to work out a route to his place avoiding Hampton Court (my usual route) as that is within the charging zone.

I am obvoiusly a bit behind on this one - but understand that the Caravan Club have lobbied GLC (or whatever Ken's lot are called these days) and, whilst they listened to the argument, gave no indication that they were prepared to change the proposal. Many people, myself included, have only one vehicle, and have spent significant amounts of time and money keeping our older diesels going - it is much less environmentally damaging to run an older car, than to manufacture a new replacement, I am sure. However, we are such a small minority that pi***ng us off is not really of major concern to them it appears.

Perhaps this will lead to an increased demand for larger engined petrol units with LPG kits?

All in all, sounds like a well-meant policy, ill drafted and ill conceived.

stridey
23-01-08, 11:52
it is much less environmentally damaging to run an older car, than to manufacture a new replacement, I am sure.

I agree wholeheartedy!!!

As for LPG, well only the Aussies eem to do LPG with Diesel, and remember that for the original congestion zone they only allowed LPG vehicles on a VERY small list, and then converted by APPROVED garages to have the discount.

My older T4, converted does not comply. But if Id left the 9 plus seats in I would! Go figure.....

Personally if a vehicle was classifed as a motor caravan I reckon that should be OK. But these people dont live in the real world.

And if TFL tell us they will check the vans of every Latvian, Polish and Hungarian builder well I'll eat my hat.

bobley
23-01-08, 12:11
Am I talking to myself? Why are you all still panicking and talking of spending 00s on LPG or buying new vans when you can replate the vehicle to less than 2.5Tonnes and avoid the problem for 58??

StephenTazz
23-01-08, 12:55
I've been told that the consultation process is on going. The chap I'm dealing with has a mountain to climb to get it right and very much appreciated the letter I initially sent.

He can't be an expert on each individual make and model, and to be fair I've written back with the AA van argument...

The assumption is that all vans are the same, and we know they are notT:. All the studies that I've seen have been generalized with no specific makes mentioned in the reports. This body of work cannot be taken lightly, although my argument is that Sulphur is going to be banned from diesel in 2009 anyway so by then all these studiies will then be redundant. Then there is the veg oil question.

Then I threw in my own anecdotal evidence that all these school run Euro4 MPV's keep failing the MOT smoke test, and suggested a reason why. The answer was that the soot particulates should burn off when the exhaust gets hot. If it takes ten miles for an engine to warm through, and a 2nd and 3rd gear thrash down the M3 or two (or three) to clear these babies out, then they ain't going to get hot doing 20mph (or less) on a two mile round trip to school twice a day.

All Caravelles up to 9 seats are classed as Large Passenger Cars (Group M), be they Euro 1, 2 or 3, and should be exempt from the LEZ charge. TFL are using the DVLA database for there info so if your log book is wrong get it changed.

A few years ago VW had a mix up with chassis numbers and many T4's got registered somehow with the wrong chassis number. They wrote to all current owners at the time, but some may have slipped through the net. Cross reference the chassis number on the van with the one on the log book - they may well be different if your Caravelle or Kombi comes up as Non Compliant.

Replating 1000 and 1200 Euro 1 and 2 panel vans seems like the best option, especially for 58.00, and should be future proof (i.e. what happens after 2012?). Maybe by 2012 Euro 3 vans will have to be replated as well.:dunno:

Just to recap - all diesel T4's built after 01st January 2002 should be Euro 3, when the standard came into force for Light Duty Goods Vehicles (Group N1) and Large Passenger Cars (Group M). To confirm look for OGE (OGD is Euro 2) on the data sticker in the service book and on the vehicle (behind the fuse box). If neither are present VW Commercial Customer Services should be able to confirm the vehicle's full specification from the chassis number...

Mike Y
29-01-08, 23:22
My 2001 registered Ex-AA comes up as non-complient after 2010, however my option codes on the fuse box cover state 0GE - ie emissions concept EU 3 - am I missing something? :confused:

reimoboy
30-01-08, 09:37
My 2001 registered Ex-AA comes up as non-complient after 2010, however my option codes on the fuse box cover state 0GE - ie emissions concept EU 3 - am I missing something? :confused:

My Euro 3 compliant van came up as non-compliant originally so I e-mailled them and it has now changed to compliant

midiwife
30-01-08, 11:14
Apologies if this sounds like a daft question but...
does anyone have any information about what happens after 2012? What's the next date? I'm set to get probably a 52 or 03 very soon - would there be any difference between these ages that could affect things later on? (Would it be worth waiting for a 53 for example?)
I'm guessing that as long as it's got the OGE sticker I should be OK?
It's just one more headache really.

Fatdog
30-01-08, 11:56
I put in my old T4 1.9td number plate and that is non compilant after 2010, then put in my current van, 2002 888, and that is compliant after 2010. Not that i drive into london too often, but i'm sure by the time 2010 gets here, Mr Livingstone will be unhappy he missed me and will have moved the posts again :c

bobley
08-02-08, 17:27
Finally got the paperwork through and a new chassis sticker to confirm that the camper is LEZ proof beyond 2010...

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/Bob_Corbishley/P1010094-1.jpg

reimoboy
08-02-08, 17:32
Nice one Bobley, what do Ken's lot have to say about that? Have you informed them of the change?

floaty
09-02-08, 09:05
My 2001 ex AA has an OGE code but it still comes up as non compliant after 2010? I have one of those SVTech stickers already on it. If i get the weight reduced by SVTech do i need to tell the Doovla or will they do it as a matter of course?:confused:

bobley
10-02-08, 23:32
Reimo - I sold the van last month and it now lives in Edinburgh but this paperwork has taken a while to come through. I just wanted to prove the LEZ could be bypassed for little cost.

Floaty - I doubt the VOSA/DVLA and LEZ peeps talk that often that the website will be updated. The reduced weight will only get you around LEZ if you're V5 states that the vehicle is a motorcaravan.

RAD
18-02-08, 22:30
Warning guys - Taken from another forum:

Our company got it's first fine today and guess what, it turns out to be bogus.

It seems some keen fraudsters are sending out letters to company van owners and companies telling them their van has not been registered and was in use in the LEZ blah blah blah.

It was picked up quickly but as no one had seen how the fines worked before if the spelling mistakes hadn't been there fraudsters might have got a nice windfall.

reimoboy
19-02-08, 08:04
Warning guys - Taken from another forum:

There is always some :c waiting to cash in on others misfortune, thanks for the heads up RAD. I'm sure this won't be the only conman to jump on the bandwagon :(

mr.tom
27-05-08, 20:13
Mmmm I'd forgotten about this, glad it's come up again. Been checking through my documents and come up with the this:

Van is a 1995 6 seater multivan (LHD from Germany) 2.4d
* On the V5 it's validation character [A.1] is 'V' - not sure what that means in relation to what I've read here so far - any clues?
* Under 'D.3 - Body type' it just says 'van'. Should I get this changed to motorcaravan? Caravelle? Would simply changing this sort it or would I still need to check it's under 2500kg (I've a feeling it isn't).

Any tips much appreciated! :)

StephenTazz
30-05-08, 16:10
Mmmm I'd forgotten about this, glad it's come up again. Been checking through my documents and come up with the this:

Van is a 1995 6 seater multivan (LHD from Germany) 2.4d
* On the V5 it's validation character [A.1] is 'V' - not sure what that means in relation to what I've read here so far - any clues?
* Under 'D.3 - Body type' it just says 'van'. Should I get this changed to motorcaravan? Caravelle? Would simply changing this sort it or would I still need to check it's under 2500kg (I've a feeling it isn't).

Any tips much appreciated! :)

The letter V in box A1 is a random letter, which bears no reference to the vehicle...

... which is good because, looking through all the type approval codes, V refers to a barge, as in river boat!!!

... T means tractor.

If you effected by the LEZ, I would seriously try to get your log book amended from van...

YellowPeril68
13-06-08, 16:09
Holy ..... according to the A1 box I own an ex AA 'Tractor' LOL:

Anyway looks like I'm compliant so far.... Y:

Until they move the goalposts, change the rules..... wonder how many non compliant coal fired power stations will be built by the Chinese Government by then....... what will they get us to do to offset that..... ****ers....

StephenTazz
05-07-08, 11:39
The latest from Transport For London (summarized from their numerous - and detailed - replies to me, for which I am very grateful)...

1) My extensive research (including published EU legislative papers) had led me to believe that the new MVEG emissions classifications that come into force in September 2009 will affect all vehicles, including existing ones. Apparently this is not the case; all passenger vehicles over 2.5 tonnes will be classified as N1 light goods vehicles - including those heavy passenger cars up to 3000kg - until then.

If that is the case then why aren't all heavy cars targeted for the LEZ like we have been?

2) Road Transport is the biggest source of Particulate Matter (PM10's) and Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx), which can affect a large number of Londoners with respiratory and cardiovascular conditions and increasing numbers of asthma sufferers (such as myself). The LEZ is designed to achieve significant reductions of the most "toxic" vehicles from London's roads by 2015.

This is over and above any natural wastage (accident write off's, MOT failures, etc). By 2015 the oldest T4 will be 25 years old, the youngest will be 12 - how many vehicles between (and built prior to) A reg (1983) and P reg (1996) actually survive today, given that the average design life of a vehicle is a statutory 10 years (and VW pledges to supply parts for it's vehicles up to 15 years old)?

3) Bio-fuels come from both plant and animal matter, and their emissions performance is dependent on their source.

My Euro 2 compliant 1996 Camper has a catalyst that converts NOx to water (that rusts my exhaust prematurely). Whilst it's PM10 emissions might be a tad higher than a EU 3 vehicle, sulphur is about to be removed from road fuel, and my van will "fast pass" the MOT emissions test because it is looked after, serviced properly and runs on a vegetable oil / diesel mix.

So far there has been no official response regarding the German "Umwelt" Zones, which embrace EU2 compliant vehicles.

4) Given the strength of feeling over this issue, the information gathered by Owners Clubs and Forums, such as ours, has prompted Transport For London to team up with DVLA, VOSA and the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) to bolster up the somewhat deficient vehicle database in order to recognise any "early adopters" - that is vehicles that became EU 3 compliant before 2002 (such as some 1999 model T4 models).

5) TFL are looking at ways to resolve the issue of vehicles such as Window Vans that are correctly registered and taxed as Diesel Cars...

... yet, still the Motor Caravan issue remains...

6) Further research is underway for affordable particulate abatement equipment that can be retrofitted to non-compliant vehicles. The target price range is from 500 to 2000.

The fitted price for a Cat for a EU3 TDI Transporter currently sits within that price band, and could easily be retrofitted to the other diesel models. However, in order to comply the van will have to undergo an additional emissions test to LEZ criteria at a cost currently standing at 28 per year over and above the 53.10 MOT Test. The vehicle may pass the MOT test, but may not pass the annual LEZ test.

Other options suggested by Transport For London open to owners include:

“Re-engine a vehicle with an engine that meets the LEZ emissions standards" - Transporter owners have been doing this for years
"Convert the vehicle to run on gas" (making it a dual-fuel vehicle?)
"Purchase a newer vehicle that meets the LEZ emissions standards" (and in many cases pay more car tax)
"Pay the daily charge"

StephenTazz
31-07-08, 23:00
When I question about the impact on large families that this will undoubtedly have, I'm met with a loud silence.

I also note the same question dodging from the Treasury regarding the new car tax changes (on BBC Parliament - I must get out more) and there impact on large families - now we're being told that having lots of kids is not ecologically sound...

Are 8 seater Previas and their clan (Estima, etc, etc) LEZ exempt?

damo
08-09-08, 19:00
Holy moley !! I think its time to get rid I just could not choke an MOT and a seperate emissions test, the MOT is a big enough pain let alone being shafted again. There is going to be lots of scrap come October 2010 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

kalifornication
09-09-08, 18:12
Ouch, got a letter from the mayor saying I'm driving in the LEZ with a noncompliant vehicle. seems my 1992 2.4D T4 California (2500kg GVW) doesn't make the cut, even though its registered as a motor caravan. bugger :(

so now i'm trying for a replate via svtech, trying to ring the lez people to see why its currently non-compliant (i thought i had until 2010) and generally feeling sorry for myself.

one thing i can't see, perhaps because its bloody obvious, but if i get my van converted from a diesel to a petrol engine (not even sure if its possible) will i then be LEZ exempt?

failing that i may also be downgrading to a passat with a tent and camping stove in the back. sigh.

kalifornication
19-09-08, 07:52
well, after a call to the dvla, it turns out if you have an imported car (mine was from germany) the LEZ department most likely doesn't have the correct details on file, and so defaults to a GSV of 5 tonnes. which is where my van was though to be.

a few photocopies and vin plate photos to register and i should be right to rattle around within the M25 until 2010.

not sure if anybody else is as thick as i am, but thought i'd share this as that initial letter left me feeling like my dog had been run over so finding out about this mixup was a huge relief.

now where is that dog...

steve padda
20-09-08, 22:01
How about we all march down to London and gather all this paperwork up and ram it up thier backsides... rant over
This just carries on getting more and more stupid, all emmisions we produce in this country amount to jack compared to other countries.
But we will still get shafted at every turn

mtbjeff
08-12-09, 20:12
5) TFL are looking at ways to resolve the issue of vehicles such as Window Vans that are correctly registered and taxed as Diesel Cars...



Any news on the ex-AA / Kombi van status Stephen?

StephenTazz
08-12-09, 21:04
They have made some changes...

It's best to type in your van's details on their website and report back:


on the Kombi issue - if you own a Transporter registered as a Diesel Car
on the EU3 issue - if you own an EU3 compliant Transporter registered before January 2002 (or indeed a 1.9TD registered after January 2002)

I know that DVLA are upgrading their database as there were too many discrepancies in general, but T4's seem to be a thorn in their side:


because they are so popular as base vehicles
because there are so many different types

I am in the process of finding out the correct procedure to down plate motor caravans to under 2500kg GVW.

johnnyshox
12-02-11, 13:31
I own a vw t4 registered in march 2001.Its a euro3 grade engine.From 3rd jan 2012 its needs to be euro4 to be able to drive in the low emission zone without getting fined etc.Does anyone know is there a reliable company that fits a filter or similar and if so any idea of the cost.If you go on the tfl website it gives you a list of companys the government provide but theres no mention of cost or what they do (very useless really).If the worst comes to the worst i may have to sell my t4 and get a t5 but ive seen some reviews from owners who are complaining of the t5 not being as reliable as the t4.I would be gutted to sell my t4 as its a great van,never let me down, any help would be great folks. cheers johnny shox.

midiwife
12-02-11, 17:51
LEZ checker says my 52 plate euro 3 ex AA kombi with diesel car on the v5 as compliant from jan 2012 onwards. But it gives me no confidence...
:-{

Dan The Van
12-02-11, 19:07
From 3rd Jan 2012 your van needs to be Euro 3 compliant, not Euro 4. As you state that you are already Euro 3 then you needn't worry. A simple way to check is to use the vehicle compliance checker on the TfL website, link below.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17700.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-3

midiwife
13-02-11, 00:34
Johnnysox's post above was worrying. He says you need Euro 4 not Euro 3 from Jan 2012.

That was news to me I have to say. I bought my van 3 years ago and went for the OGE sticker (Euro 3) meaning I got an ex AA without back windows.

TFL website is down for maintenance just now so I can't re check but when I did earlier, it said mine was compliant.

But for how long....

midiwife
13-02-11, 00:44
TfL website does indeed say Euro IV from Jan 2012.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17700.aspx#container

...

midiwife
13-02-11, 00:53
Back again,

Seems I may be a larger van (as I thought) and therefore only subject to Euro lll as I originally thought.

The TfL website makes it all as clear as mud. Shocking design.

fivezylinder
27-06-11, 19:44
it is euro IV from jan 2012, just try to sort out a filter fitter for my pick up,not that easy as they say:(:(:(:(
my bus on the other hand which is a 93' petrol is compliantA:A:A:A:A:A:

StephenTazz
30-06-11, 19:22
it is euro IV from jan 2012, just try to sort out a filter fitter for my pick up,not that easy as they say:(:(:(:(
my bus on the other hand which is a 93' petrol is compliantA:A:A:A:A:A:

It's EU3 from 2012 for us, but EU4 for trucks and buses...

Chops
02-08-11, 16:17
i thought it was any van under 3.5T (i.e. any T4) which was registsred before Jan 2002.
If the T4 production stopped in 2003 then most of the T4s are affected.

That sorts that out. I'm looking for a new van. It was a T4 but I live in Cornwall and make regular trips to London so it'll probably have to be a T5... which means I probably can't afford (read not allowed to by SWMBO) the van we want (read need for work).

Chops
02-08-11, 16:36
but as you say, the TFL site's ballsing queries up at the moment (it's done this a number of times I've checked) and is generally clear as mud unless you have the registration of the vechicle.. if you're looking to buy a vehicle that's not very useful. Generally a not very clear site for a relatively clear subject to explain (ish).

I remember hearing old Ken Livingston being interviewed about this years ago.. truck operators almost weeping on the radio saying "but how the hell am I supposed to afford to replace 7 trucks at a cost of 1 million quid".. Ken just said "well, if you can't then another operator will.. that's 'The Market'"!

Jurasik
02-08-11, 21:27
Just checked my 02 Ex AA on the website. It says compliant from 3rd Jan 2012.

T4Lyn
08-08-11, 17:43
Protest planned for September outside the Mayor's office
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Low-Emission-Zone-London-Protest-wwwstaymobiletv/177199295665048

Uzi
10-08-11, 13:11
I've had my 92 Westy camper down plated to under 2.5t and now TFL tell me I need proof of the unladen weight before it was converted. It's a German import so does anyone know how I can find this out? It needs to have weighed 1.205 t or less before it was converted to be compliant.

scrapperstoo
10-08-11, 13:26
I've had my 92 Westy camper down plated to under 2.5t and now TFL tell me I need proof of the unladen weight before it was converted. It's a German import so does anyone know how I can find this out? It needs to have weighed 1.205 t or less before it was converted to be compliant.

I'd be surprised if you could find a T4 van that weighed as little as 1.2t unless the back was full of helium balloons. I think the quoted kerb weight for them is generally somewhere around 1.6t - might be different for different variants though. :*

Uzi
11-08-11, 19:02
Ok, now I'm REALLY confused :confused:
I just went to the TFL LEZ vehicle checker and put my reg No in and it came up as Compliant !
Whenever I've checked it before its always come up as NON compliant but since I rang up to ask about it on Tuesday , it comes up as Compliant T:
There are two ways to check if you can use it after Jan 3rd 2012 and they are by putting in your reg number or by vehicle type.
I'm wondering if by me ringing up about it has made them update my details on their database ?
Has anyone else come across this ?

roboft4
13-08-11, 11:14
i think the only way people will know if there vehicle is ok is if you dont get the 200 fine letter in post.london why would anyone go there??????????????? go west life is best.yes

midiwife
22-08-11, 11:18
It's EU3 from 2012 for us, but EU4 for trucks and buses...
Stephen, Just wondering, do you know if there are any further plans afoot for even more stringent measures after Jan 2012?
My Euro 3 is quoted as fine from then but I can see the way that this is going. Very worrying for any diesel van drivers out there.

Uzi
03-09-11, 09:30
:eek:I officially hate T F Hell at the moment , I've checked my camper via the website and it comes up as Compliant but they've sent me a letter this morning telling me that i'm Not ! How can I be both at the same time!:confused: I rang them up but the office is shut until monday so i have to ring back then. Grrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

Jurasik
03-09-11, 10:04
:eek:I officially hate T F Hell at the moment , I've checked my camper via the website and it comes up as Compliant but they've sent me a letter this morning telling me that i'm Not ! How can I be both at the same time!:confused: I rang them up but the office is shut until monday so i have to ring back then. Grrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

Take a screenshot of the website & print it out. Save the website page to your hard disk. That way you have proof that you are getting conflicting information.

Uzi
03-09-11, 20:50
Take a screenshot of the website & print it out. Save the website page to your hard disk. That way you have proof that you are getting conflicting information.

I've done that already! Getting all the ammo I can to fire back at them when they ask me for proof (which I'm certain they will! ) Just very peed off cos I thought it was all sorted and now I have to go through it again:(

andymax78
07-09-11, 20:07
Just got a letter through today from TFL saying about 2012 changes and that my van is non-compliant. Checked the website and same outcome. Having read the thread am I right that my best option is to get the weight down rated. V5 says motor caravan, current weight on door plate is 2515kg!!! but not stated on V5. My van is a 1992 1.9d autosleeper conversion so not worth loads but can't afford to change.

greencaravelleguy
07-09-11, 21:15
Hi guys, I am really struggling with all this data and trying to understand how it effects me and my situation directly. Basically I live in Croydon and have just received the dreaded letter for my 1997 2.5 tdi caravelle. I was hoping it wouldn't affect me as it was originally a people carrier but now converted into a proper camper van.

It is not registered as a camper van but could quite easily get it altered on the DVLA paperwork as I should meet their conversion criteria. But would this help?

I have checked on the website for London Transport and it says I am not compliant.
I don’t also understand how I would be charged. If I set off to a local shop in Croydon and there is a camera somewhere would I be charged 100? Or is it if I only go to certain areas within ‘London’. I don’t need or want to go into London just drive out onto the M25 and away!

So does anyone know my options?

- Lower weight? (my manual says ‘Permissible GVW’ 2680kg for 75 & 103kw power models)
- Get special exhaust filter fitted (expensive!)?
- Get a company to ‘tweek’ the database vehicle data for 50 or whatever someone said in a tread?
- Make sure it’s registered as a camper van?
- What is VW doing about this issue for motorists making us all get T5’s?

Any help appreciated

Aaron

kfphil
08-09-11, 22:01
andy get it downrated!!! if the v5 says camper the hard work is done already

Aaron, As i understand it mate the camera are all over the place, heading out of croydon all the routes to the m25 have cameras on them, e.g if you go through purley along the a23 past purley firestation just before stoatsnest road you can see them.... tall poles with cameras at the top with spikey things around them to stop people "getting at them". If i were you i'd try and get the camper and downrating thing done, it seems the dvla have started allowing conversions again :* thats the route i'l be looking at, sod the 2500 for a filter that needs cleaning and testing all the time, but i got till 2015. Croydon is getting lively there are a few of us round here nowT:!!

Fitch
09-09-11, 10:48
Nice one guys. I too live in Croydon. How do you get a van replated then so that it has a GVW of less than 2.5T? Many thanks. Mark

martboltonuk
09-09-11, 10:58
Boris Johnson wants Booting !!!!!!

Ive never seen as many Londoners trying to offload there pride and Joys on ebay as a result of his Draconian actions !! what a TWIT....................

bobley
09-09-11, 11:10
Nice one guys. I too live in Croydon. How do you get a van replated then so that it has a GVW of less than 2.5T? Many thanks. Mark

Speak to a company called SVTech

http://www.svtech.co.uk/

Its a paperwork only exercise. Cost about 60 when I did mine.

greencaravelleguy
09-09-11, 19:00
Hi kf phil, thanks for the info about the camera's - will keep a look out for them and good to know DVLA might be allowing conversions again. So Croydon too hey, I will keep a note of your user name or if there are any meets etc. What's your van look like or maybe I should check your pic albums. Cheers Aaron

greencaravelleguy
09-09-11, 19:03
Like the sound of this svtech company, does it mean I have to go and see them though with the van for swapping weight plates or whatever they do? Is this the only company doing it? Sounds like a bargain though compared with paying 1700 + which is what the local garge told me after the mot in Croydon.


Thanks again


A

Speak to a company called SVTech

http://www.svtech.co.uk/

Its a paperwork only exercise. Cost about 60 when I did mine.

bobley
09-09-11, 20:53
You dont have to see them to do a de-rate.

They can even do certain marginal uprates on paper. They offered to put 100kg extra on my Dads Alko chassised motorhome so he could carry more booze and his bike, but 200kg was 600 as that involved fitting airbags.

greencaravelleguy
14-09-11, 20:43
It's a sad thought but if I can't get the DVLA to change the body type on the log book and all the rest of the things then I will be like so many on here and forced to purchase a T5 !

AND wastn't this forum originally for T4's !


Let's just hope I can sort it all out as I love my T4 Caravelle and travel only about 6k per year so can't justify getting anything newer just for camping.

Wotsits
15-10-11, 07:27
Ok, now I'm REALLY confused :confused:
I just went to the TFL LEZ vehicle checker and put my reg No in and it came up as Compliant !
Whenever I've checked it before its always come up as NON compliant but since I rang up to ask about it on Tuesday , it comes up as Compliant T:
There are two ways to check if you can use it after Jan 3rd 2012 and they are by putting in your reg number or by vehicle type.
I'm wondering if by me ringing up about it has made them update my details on their database ?
Has anyone else come across this ?

I've just checked again and I am now compliant, I had a letter earlier in the year and I wrote to them to appeal and they said no. I've saved the page and screen printed too just in case.

NUFsaid
25-10-11, 12:48
Speak to a company called SVTech

http://www.svtech.co.uk/

Its a paperwork only exercise. Cost about 60 when I did mine.

Am I missing something here :confused: I don't see how this could work.

According to the LEZ web site the four criteria for being caught by LEZ are: It is a commercial chassis; it runs on deisel; weighs between 1.205 and 3.5 tonnes unladen; registered new before Jan 2002.

I found a site that says my T4 has an unladen weight of 1.630 tonnes. No amount of getting it replated to carry less weight affects the unladen weight???

Alan.

Odeon
09-11-11, 11:08
Alan,

If DVLA registered as Motor Caravan, then the limit rises to 2.5t hence the reson for re-plating to just below. Mines an import and am just waiting for this to be done before going through next hurdle if I want to go to my folks. Just checked my sisters address which is where I would travel to a lot of the time.. About 1/2 mile outside LEZ but within the m25. ResultA:

Camping on the mens road race route is now back on!!!

Wayne

bigcat
09-11-11, 16:56
I know this doesn't help any of you who may live in or, need to use your bus in the LEZ.
Forgive me having a typical bigcat rant too I:, but I'm really annoyed that Transport for London have today sent me a SECOND letter telling me that my van doesn't comply.
How much money and paper do we really need to waste in this country ?
Yours, just hacked off by beauracracy of it all...even more than before and I was pretty hacked off then. Do goodin, paper pushin, non-producin, did I mention do goodin ? -out of touch with reality bell -ends.

turtill
04-12-11, 17:17
I know this doesn't help any of you who may live in or, need to use your bus in the LEZ.
Forgive me having a typical bigcat rant too I:, but I'm really annoyed that Transport for London have today sent me a SECOND letter telling me that my van doesn't comply.
How much money and paper do we really need to waste in this country ?
Yours, just hacked off by beauracracy of it all...even more than before and I was pretty hacked off then. Do goodin, paper pushin, non-producin, did I mention do goodin ? -out of touch with reality bell -ends.

Both my 1.9 vans are registered as disabled vehicles. They were both converted to take wheelchairs. I am allowed into the congestion charge are but apparently not allowed into the LEZ area. This means I cannot go to London which doesn't bother me at all but it is very hard on disabled folks who have to go to London.

pete