The T5 multivan seat fits with a bit of work and has integrated three point belts.
The T4 multivan bed has a centre lapbelt and in standard form has two roof mount three point belts. These can only be fitted if you have a standard production window van like an ex-aa type or a caravelle. These are built differently i.e double skinned and strengthened in relevant areas. The alternative is to fit two outer lapbelts which is cheap and easy to do.
Time to start looking at how to sort out my Velle in time for the spring.
Where could I get a T4 multivan bed...2nd hand considered. Are they full width or 3/4. Ive followed all the debates on RnR beds and come to the conclusion that the variotech type set up is prob best for me. Just pricey.
Whats the best set up for the occasional surf weekend. 3/4 bed with boards inside, or roof rack and stick em on top?
CMC in Kent do a Reimo easy click bed system,it is a full width seat with 3 headrests,you can use the original Caravelle seatbelts and a lap in the middle,the frame has the threads already in so you could use 3 lap belts if you only have a panelvan,it is fixed using mushroom bolts and can be taken out easily if needed,not cheap at £1147 but with young kids i,m not going to take the risk of a cheap rock n roll bed,I belive the Variotech seats are near 2 grand so the easyclick I believe is good value for money and should be considered if money is not a issue.
I've used Reimo Variotech three times now. The double seat version with camper fittings down the Right side. With the seat in the forward position (or one a bit further back if you make an extra set of locating holes,) you can use the standard three point belt on the outside seat with a lap on the other. You can fit a lap to the right seat of the pair if you are willing to have it over the furniture.
The best thing about using a Variotech is the flexibility that can be gained by being able to move the seat about or even lifting it out without any tools etc.
There is a newer version called a 333 Variotech which has full seatbelt capability I think. Have a look at Reimo Germany website there is an English portion to the site, click the Union Flag.
This is how the first two of mine looked, the third is in a T5 that I am converting at the moment. The runners in the blue one are at a non standard offset but otherwise it's standard.
To clarify the applications for the Reimo 333 seat.
When the 333 seat was intriduced to satisfy new EU seating legislation I looked at it to answer the problems with 3 point belts in the rear of the T4.
I spoke to the seat designer at Reimo and he informed me that it was not possible to fit the 333 in a T4 as the floor pan was not strong enough to withstand the combined forces of seat and passengers at the point of maximum loading at a point of collision.
Seating is one subject which attracts a lot of post by members seeking advice and comment and unfortunately seems to be diluted by none constructive arguement. I would like to make comment regarding seat applications without favour of any seat manufacturer or supplier but based on the the implications of seat installation.
A SEAT IS JUST A SEAT FOR MOST OF ITS LIFE. WHEN YOU ARE SITTING ON THE SEAT TRAVELLING AT 40 MPH AND YOU HIT AN OBJECT COMING THE OTHER WAY AT 40 MPH IT IS NOT THE SEAT YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT IT IS PASSENGER RESTRAINT. SO I WILL TRY TO PUT FORWARD SOME FACTS.
YOUR DECISSION ON WHAT SEAT MUST BE BASED ON WHICH TYPE OF SEAT WILL SATISFY THESE REQUIREMENTS.
When deciding on a seat configuration it is not the seat in itself which satisfies the safety issues. The seat is just a seat and a decision on what seat to purchase should be based on the application and position of the seat in the vehicle and the required strength to restrain the occupants at the time of a crash.
In the main there are 3 specific types of seat:
1. A seat which does not support any part of the passenger restraint belts (all belt anchorage points attached to the vehicle).With this application the seat is just a seat and at the point of a crash there will be no loads exerted on it other than its own weight and the forces loaded on the occupant is forcing the body to leave the seat. The seat now plays no part in restraining the occupants. The safety of the occupants is totally dependant on the belt restraint anchorage points on the vehicle body.
2. A seat which supports part of the passenger restraint belt in the lap position and the upper torso being retrained by the top anchorage attachment of the 3 point belt fixed to the vehicle body if safe attachment to the vehicle is available.
With this application the seat now plays a part in the strength required to retrain the occupants. It is now important to consider the position and strength of the seat fixture to the vehicle floor pan and of most importance the seat belt anchorage points on the vehicle as these fixtures will be the greatest safety factor at the point of collision.
3. A seat which has integral three point inertia belts restraining the torso.
With this application the most important factor is the strength of the vehicle floor pan as at the point of a crash all the energy exerted on the occupant and seat will be taken by the seat fixtures to the floor pan. To withstand the loads exerted on it, seats with integral belts are built of heavier gauge metal resulting in a very heavy unit which also will be a factor to be taken into consideration when calculating the loads exerted on the anchorage points and floor pan as all the loading will be exerted through the floor in the event of a crash. If these fixtures fail you will still be thrown forward strapped to the seat increasing the chance of serious injury.
It must be remembered that the T4 panel van was not built to the specification to carry passengers and modification to achieve this roll should be undertaken with great care and credible information.
So to sum up.
When deciding on the seat configuration for your needs think first about passenger restraint and how this will be achieved and then research the market for a proven seating option which satisfies the safety of your passengers.
Where could I get a T4 multivan bed...2nd hand considered. Are they full width or 3/4. Ive followed all the debates on RnR beds and come to the conclusion that the variotech type set up is prob best for me. Just pricey.
T4 Multivan beds are best sourced on German ebay, or have a chat with Vanbling on this forum as I think he may have a contact in Germany who can get them for you.
They are only available in full width, and if you are fitting them into a panel van you will have to use lap belts on all three seats as the inertia reels originally used on the two outer seats cannot be used (panel vans constructed differently to window vans/caravelles)
I went through all these options when I was planning my interior, and it gets frustrating at times, but I eventually bit the bullet and had a full width Variotech fitted, and can recommend them as they are a very flexible rear seating solution.T:
T4 Multivan beds are best sourced on German ebay, or have a chat with Vanbling on this forum as I think he may have a contact in Germany who can get them for you.
QUOTE]
He's sold multivan beds and seats to a few guys on here before. Its a bit of a treck if you drive over there as he lives near Dresden which it close to the Polish border of Germany but the roads are really good and quick. Other people went over in a group to save costs and I think they managed to get 3 multivan beds and front seats in a SWB T4.
I hope my post helped to explain the implications of seat fitment and it is the implications of passenger restraint applicable to the seat construction.
It is not exactly the question of tracking but the strength of the floor pan and the connection to the floor pan to withstand the loads placed on it in the evnt of a crash. It is my understanding that the RIB seat has TUV approval for the frame but I am not sure if the approval covers the installation in specific vehicles but I am sure that the seat supplier would be able to clarify this. The RIB seat has been used by many leading Conversion Companies during the life of the T4 and I am sure that any installation issues would have been addressed. If you require a static seat positioned to the rear of the 'C' post (between rear wheel arches) there are limited options for 3 point belts so researching this product through your preffered supplier will help to address all the issues I have raised.
Hi - I am a bit reluctant to ask given the length and vehemence of previous debates on seating but I have a query on window van chassis and seat types - much of the above i assume refers to normal panel vans?
Its my understanding that ex-aa vans do have the strength in the chassis to take fixed point seatbelts on the wall. If thats confirmed as the case would a "normal" r&r bed such as advertised as available for discount on this site, properly fitted, be considered safe? are there other crash tested seats that are suitable for this type of van (as opposed to a 'normal' panel van)? sorry if this has been answered already but after ploughing through most of the 20 odd pages of another post I'm a bit confused LOL:
I understand your confusion but I hope my explanation in responce to SmileyVan who I think I upset and most probably is now called 'VAN' will be of help with your question. I think this answers your question regarding the seat belt application but has not resoved the issue for a crash tested option.
I would not wish to comment on any seat other than the fact that you have to satisfy yourself on the installation, seat belt attachent to the seat frame and suitability for your purpose. I think that if you read the important elements of the seat and seat belt threads you can ask the required questions from your preffered seat manufacturer or supplier and hopefully alay any concerns.
Tony, very interesting, I'd just decided a 333 would be ideal...oh well, have to rethink now.
If the ex-AA combis are ok for fixed 3 point belts is this just behind the window or at the back or both? How do the belts work with the Variotech seat when it slides, are they long enough?
Sorry for the novice questions, but haven't been able to find definitive answers elsewhere...
Sorry SmileyVan did not wish to spoil the direction of your project especialy as you had decided on a very expensive and fully crash tested seat option. Unfortunately the 333 has not been crash tested for the installation in the T4 so could have insurance implications. In adition the sliding rails are machined to line up with the T5 chassis and not T4.
It is often difficult to make comment becuase I am sure some of the information does get a little technical and is often not what people want to hear. Unfortunately I share the enthusiasm for the T4 but the seat safety issue has in someway dampened some of the enthusiasm due to misinformed comment to some of the threads and unconstructive arguement.
With the fear that I may upset some members for which I sincerely appologise, I answer the question of fiting seat belts in the rear position of the Window Van Spec T4 SWB (Chassis number starting WV2) with window in sliding door and panel opposite and no windows to rear of 'C' (behind sliding door)as ex AA van.
Kombi and Window Vans inner shell is built as Caravelle with additional strengthening members and seat belt inserts attached during production. When the vehicle makes its way down the assembly line the inner shell is assembled as a full window van including fixtures for rear seats. When the van has the outer panels attached the rear panels are from the panel van and this is the deciding factor for seat belt attachment in the mid position of the rear window. Explanation of rear seat belt fixture as crash tested by Volkswagen:
There is a strengthening plate attached inside the inner skin to spread the load. To achieve the required strength in this position the outer skin of the vehicle is spot welded to the inner skin which creates a box. It is this construction that the seat belt anchorage was tested. As the rear outer panels are panel van application and not welded to inner skin full strength has not been satisfied.
I wish that there was a simple answer to these safety issues but unfortunately this is the world of vehicle modification and there are minimal crash tested solutions.
what Tony says makes sense as the rear window outer skin is only bonded on to the inner frame right at the back of the van.
I'm just wondering what Vw did so that you could have seats but no windows
I thankyou for your constructive reply to my post.
I understand the seating combinations for mid and rear row seats to facilitate passenger entry.
My comments on the rear seat belt issues where based on factual information, shall we say from the horses mouth and not my opinion. Having invested in the developement of the Styleline Interior for Kombi Van specification vehicles I obviously researched the seat belt options for positions to the rear of the sliding door in line with VW manufactured options. The results were no window no 3 point belt. This is why I did not design in a facility for this application within the trim options.
I take seat safety as an important part of my industry and in line with this undertaking I would not wish to deny anybody a safe solution to passenger restraint as a result of any misinformation supplied by me. You have raised an important question and I will now go back and seek confirmation for the points you have raised.
I will reply on this thread to give updates of progress.
Further to the above post and my undertaking to check that the information I gave reference seat belt applications in the WV2 specification vehicles was correct and to check out the constructive reply from Bananavan.
I am pleased to say that I have had the opportunity today to get confirmation from the most reliable source.
The conclusion:
Seat belt mounting points on the top rails above the rear windows (technical term 'CANT RAIL') are not suitable for seat belt attachment to conform with the vehicle crash test criteria unless a window was installed in this area during vehicle manufacture. The WV2 window van specification vehicles commonly known as 'Kombi' is constructed to facilitate a row of seats in the mid section (alongside sliding door and opposite panel) with 3 point belts running off the 'C' post (post behind sliding door and opposite).
The Window Van WV2 specification Transporter was supplied with or without seating. Vehicles not fitted with original equipment seats and seat fixtures are not tested by Volkswagen in respect to seat attachment to the vehicle and the responsibility for testing and approvals for this equipment is the responsibility of the seat installer.
i was going to ring but i figured some people might be interested in the questions i want to ask so i figured i`d post instead.
1)in your post on the thread you mention chassis numbers. our van chassis number starts with wv1 and i presume this means its a panel van and not structurally sound for seatbelts without the strengthening plate withing the c pillar?
2)you mentioned attaching the inner and outer skins to create strength for the seat belt.
i presume we will still need the strengthing plate behind the c pillar? we do not have any threaded seat belt points in the c pillar so would need to install one for this anyhow?
3) the inner and outer skins - i presume you refer to the 2 layers of metal apparent at the window locations and it is a case of spot welding these together?
4)we are going to get a window to the mid panel. to do the strengthening do we need to get a back window too? we dont want one if poss.
5)can you mount to or strengthen the area above the window (i think you called tis the cant rail?) in a similar fashion to the c pillar?
6)can you mount to the floor if using a strengthing plate to the underside? i presume this is how most 3 point belts are mounted as there are no mounts in the floor?
7) i presume thre must be other possible mount loctions for seatbelts further back in the multi van. as the panel van is constructed different would these areas be posbl to use if strengthened with a plate to the rear (such as floor and wheel arch areas?)
thankyou for your time and answering the queries. i`m bit new to this and want to make sure i understand why i`m doing various things and what i end up choosing is safe.
we are leaning towards a variotech option but i`m not convinced of the safeness of a 3 point in conjunction with this system. the centre and lower seat belt mounts are mounted to teh seat base i presume and this, in turn is mounted to rails, and then the rails to teh floor. why mess with all that when a mount to the chassis/strengthen the underside of the floor is a `cleaner` solution?
sorry for waffleing on i hope it all makese sense!
You have raised a lot of points in response to post on this thread. I have posted and commented on questions and offered some words of warnng on the implications of safety when modifying the T4 for seat installation.You are correct, I have raised some issues and a request for some clarification on the points I raised is fair and reasonable. I will try to answer the points you have raised but to do this I will need a little time to write the response. Please keep a watch and I will post within the next couple of days subject to businesss work load.
On the subject of the Variotech, it is supplied with strengthening plates to go under the floor for that very reason. I have always been happy with their fitting, I've fitted them myself and seen the German TUV certification for the design which comes with each unit. You even get a serial numbered seat chassis which I assume means that they keep some kind of record of the production / quality control.
On the T4 you can insert a reinforcement into the 'C' pillar for the upper end of a three point belt (I beileve it is not possible to insert it into position on a T5). I don't know about the rear location above the window but I am sure someone else on this forum will help.
My second T4 was converted by Awaydays of Wrexham from a panel van and they fitted reinforcement in the pillar. The third one I did myself from a Kombi so it was already there as it is on the T5 that I am converting now.
hi matey,
have been lookin for a decent seat/bed system myself ,i have come to the conclusion the rib seat is the one for me .3/4 width with integral 3 point belts head rests you dont have to remove when using as a bed .i found that the cheapest supplier in uk is SW conversions,they are based in devon and they supply including vat for £1650
that includes upholstery to your spec i.e inca cloth and integral 3 point seatbelts.
they are on ebay listing no 180211034948
hope this helps
johnT:
is the RIB bed crash tested for use in the t4? i didnt think there were any seats with integral 3 point belts safe for use? i didnt think the floorpan is strong enough?
if its ok to use it may be a better system to the variotech.
Has any one tried a Cannon's forge bed system yet? I'm speaking to Dave about a full length and his offer he made to the forum a while back, he's being very helpful with advice (the insurance company came in this week after the Mrs killed off our Bora..so looks like I'll be getting one, all set for the season, just realised I cant go to France flying or probably India this year so if I'm flying in the UK I may aswell make the most of it in the Van of justice T:T:
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