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  #21  
Old 13-12-10, 21:24
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

no argument here mate , just a discussion but i'm going to need a little more than "not fitting them is not safe" or the spigot rings take the weight of the van rather than the bolts before i change my mind from the " possibly the worst safety related advice I've seen on here" opinion i have .

the spigot rings only real function that i see is helping in the locating/centralisation of wheels when fitting and maybe if you did not tighten the wheel bolts correctly or have a problem with bolt/wheel combination . it may help the wheel stay on slightly longer .

once you have your five correct wheel bolts for the wheel in finger tight they have served their purpose . the wheel is then centralised both in relation to the hub up , down , left to right as well as clockwise/anti clockwise by torqueing the wheel bolts correctly and if everything is correct and the right procedure is followed then it will be near on impossible to get the wheel on non-central in relation to the hub because of the design of the wheel and wheel bolt .

so now we have the wheel bolted to the hub central and torqued correctly , i'd be willing to bet the wheel bolts are now taking 100% weight of the van purely down to the design of the wheel and wheel bolts . if there is a load being transfered to the spigot ring then there is something else wrong , my guess being most likely the bolts being wrong for the wheels .
if the weight of the van , say for instance 500kg a corner was sitting on that ring of plastic how long do you think the spigot would last ? and would you not agree that for the weight of the van to be sat on the spigot there would have to be problem and your more than likely about to lose a wheel anyway , whether a ring is fitted or not ?
i can barely see a difference if you wheel comes loose , spigot ring or not . you may gain a little time with one , but if this has happened then there is another problem there anyway , either way the wheels falls off

i have driven 100's of thousands of miles without spigot rings on many many different vehicles and know many people who have done like wise . i have never come across a wheel coming of because spigot rings were not fitted apart from on the web . i don't believe in either . if a wheel falls off , there will be another reason why .

spigot rings conveinient , yes . essential , in my opinion , no not really . would i fit them if i was buying alloys , probably for convienience and i'm sure the alloy wheel place will be more than happy to take another tenner of you to make their job easier

if people want to put there faith in a small magic plastic ring thats fine , i'll just make sure i get the right bolts for the wheels and torque them correctly . i may be right or wrong and i'm perfectly willing to accept i'm wrong if someone can tell me why i'm going to instantly die by not fitting spigot rings .

merry xmas and happy new year to you all

steve
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  #22  
Old 13-12-10, 21:46
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colese colese is offline
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

i will agree with you totaly that in correctly torqued or not torqued wheels are a massive cause of wheels coming a drift...

dont think we will agree on the spigots though...

i say fit...but that aint gospel

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  #23  
Old 13-12-10, 22:12
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

My "opinion" that's it the worst safety related advice. Based on the fact that, where safety is concerned, most peoples advice leans toward the "belt and braces" approach.

For the sake of less than 10, not fitting spigot rings seems ludicrous to me
And advising someone else not to bother, seems pretty pointless too.

I had the function of the "hubcentric" element of the wheel hub, and spigot rings etc explained to me by a guy who manufactures hubcentric spacers, and it all seemed to make sense. So that's how I formed my opinion, and I'm fairly happy with it.
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  #24  
Old 13-12-10, 23:42
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71075 View Post
no argument here mate , just a discussion but i'm going to need a little more than "not fitting them is not safe" or the spigot rings take the weight of the van rather than the bolts before i change my mind from the " possibly the worst safety related advice I've seen on here" opinion i have .

the spigot rings only real function that i see is helping in the locating/centralisation of wheels when fitting and maybe if you did not tighten the wheel bolts correctly or have a problem with bolt/wheel combination . it may help the wheel stay on slightly longer .

once you have your five correct wheel bolts for the wheel in finger tight they have served their purpose . the wheel is then centralised both in relation to the hub up , down , left to right as well as clockwise/anti clockwise by torqueing the wheel bolts correctly and if everything is correct and the right procedure is followed then it will be near on impossible to get the wheel on non-central in relation to the hub because of the design of the wheel and wheel bolt .

so now we have the wheel bolted to the hub central and torqued correctly , i'd be willing to bet the wheel bolts are now taking 100% weight of the van purely down to the design of the wheel and wheel bolts . if there is a load being transfered to the spigot ring then there is something else wrong , my guess being most likely the bolts being wrong for the wheels .
if the weight of the van , say for instance 500kg a corner was sitting on that ring of plastic how long do you think the spigot would last ? and would you not agree that for the weight of the van to be sat on the spigot there would have to be problem and your more than likely about to lose a wheel anyway , whether a ring is fitted or not ?
i can barely see a difference if you wheel comes loose , spigot ring or not . you may gain a little time with one , but if this has happened then there is another problem there anyway , either way the wheels falls off

i have driven 100's of thousands of miles without spigot rings on many many different vehicles and know many people who have done like wise . i have never come across a wheel coming of because spigot rings were not fitted apart from on the web . i don't believe in either . if a wheel falls off , there will be another reason why .

spigot rings conveinient , yes . essential , in my opinion , no not really . would i fit them if i was buying alloys , probably for convienience and i'm sure the alloy wheel place will be more than happy to take another tenner of you to make their job easier

if people want to put there faith in a small magic plastic ring thats fine , i'll just make sure i get the right bolts for the wheels and torque them correctly . i may be right or wrong and i'm perfectly willing to accept i'm wrong if someone can tell me why i'm going to instantly die by not fitting spigot rings .

merry xmas and happy new year to you all

steve
Sorry to say this but you are wrong, if you have wheels with different size centres to the original wheels, spiggot rings are essential, to give any other advice is dangerous.

Why I am sounding so sure of myself, because after fitting expensive after market wheels to my van when I first got it I hadn't heard of spiggot rings.
When my front wheel came off when I was driving at 70 MPH I soon found out why you need them!!!

Don't take my word for it do your own independent research, the hub takes the weight of the vehicle, the wheel bolts hold the wheel to the hub.

If you use wheels with a larger centre then the bolts are taking all the weight, even if the bolts are really tight the weight of the van and rotation of the wheel will cause slight vibration, which will cause the wheel to come loose.

What are Spigot Rings and why do I need them?

Spigot Rings (Centre Rings) are used to ensure that an alloy wheel is correctly centred on to the hub of the vehicle. If an alloy wheel is fitted without spigot rings it will probably cause the wheel to vibrate, make it almost impossible to balance, increase uneven tyre wear and in time will work the fixings loose. So, fitting wheels without spigot rings can be very dangerous.




PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not give out dangerous advice

Never Trust an Atom, They Make Up Everything!

Last edited by Spanners; 13-12-10 at 23:49.
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  #25  
Old 14-12-10, 01:52
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

i'm sorry to hear of your accident mate , hope everybody is ok and your van is not to bad

a couple of bits worry me about your statement ,

"because after fitting expensive after market wheels to my van when I first got it I hadn't heard of spiggot rings" would suggest to me that you have fitted them yourself and not had them done at a wheel place or they would have fitted spigots with them being so important right ? if you had'nt heard of spigot rings your probably not the best person to be swapping wheels over no offence meant .

"even if the bolts are really tight" i find this even more worrying , just how tight is really tight because it sounds a little vague to me .

sorry mate , i may be wrong but as i say no offence or anything but just maybe you did something wrong ? did you use a torque wrench , recheck torque after driving for say 50 miles , what bolts did you use ?

how exactly did your wheel come off , shawn bolts or did they just fall out ?
how far did you manage to drive with the wheel wobbling , or did it just come straight off ?


"the hub takes the weight of the vehicle, the wheel bolts hold the wheel to the hub" correct and then the weight is transfered through the wheel bolts to the wheels . or do you seriously believe your plastic spigot rings are holding your van up ?
they do not take the weight , look at the pictures and read what i have written then tell me how the spigot ring is taking the weight ? there is 700 lb ft spread over 5 tapered bolts holding that wheel against the hub , if they are the correct ones they will have a surface area 360 degrees round the bolt hole pushing the taper in the wheel to centre . that wheel is'nt moving unless the bolts come loose or they are the wrong bolts .

would be interested to hear your theories on the effect of wheel balancing being almost impossible not using spigot rings , as well as the effect of weight and wheel rotation causing slight vibration .

i'm not advising anybody to do anything , i'm simply saying that i have absolutely no problem with not running spigot rings and if done correctly it is safe in my opinion . i hardly think the op is going to go my side after a whole first page of over dramatic statements saying he'll be dead by the time he gets off his drive !

as i say when i see proper evidence , i will hold my hands up and i'll admit i'm wrong but until then i'll stick with my opinion . perhaps nealglover would care to enlighten us on the explanation given by the hubcentric spacer designer ? surely this would give us all the answers we need ? lets just hope its not "they take the weight of your 2 tonne van" or "its not safe to not fit them"
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  #26  
Old 14-12-10, 02:21
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

As I said in my previous post, It's my opinion and I'm perfectly happy with it.

The Person who explained it to me was an engineer, and he doesn't sell spigot rings so he had no reason to talk me into anything.
And the terms he used and way he explained it were a bit beyond my knowledge if I'm honest, so I won't be quoting him (or providing "evidence") but the overall theme was that it's not a good idea, safety wise, to run without the correct size Bore or spigot rings to correct it.

So as they only cost a few quid, and I trust the knowledge of the person who advised me, I'll go with the advice I was given.
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  #27  
Old 14-12-10, 04:03
mike_s14 mike_s14 is offline
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

as far as people are concerned spigot rings should be fitted to ease the installation of a wheel

they do not take any load directly, that is done through the hub face by the applied bolt torque
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  #28  
Old 14-12-10, 07:48
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

found this quite useful, whilst learning how to be a wh*re

i am just the messenger here... but it is does hopefully answer a few questions

PCD

The term PCD stands for (pitch circle diameter) and is the diameter of a circle drawn through the centre of your wheels bolt holes. PCD is measured in millimetres and also indicates the number of studs or bolts the wheel will have.

One of the most common fitment has 4 studs and a PCD of 100mm, hence the fitment 4x100. Check the fitment guide above to check the fitment of your car, if you are unsure please check with vehicle and wheel manufacturer before purchase and subsequent fitment.

OFFSET

Every car requires a unique offset. This is where the outside of the wheel needs to be in relation to the bodyline of the vehicle, realistically you can go 5-7mm outside these recommendations, but always check with vehicle and wheel manufacturer' if you are unsure, as there are often other factors that need to be considered.

Reasons For Fitting Alloy Wheels

The two main reasons for fitting Alloy Wheels, are to enhance Style, and reduce Weight.

Alloy wheels are a lot lighter than the equivalent size of steel wheels, so the unsprung weight of the car is reduced. They also look 10 times smarter than a steel wheel, even with a fancy plastic trim covering it.

Two things to look for when fitting after market wheels is the PCD

(Pitch Circle Diameter, ) and spigot size. The PCD is easy to match as this relates to the number of studs you need to hold the wheel on the car. The ACTUAL meaning is the diameter of the studs from the centre of the wheel.

Spigot size is a bit trickier....the spigot is the bit in the centre of the hub that you rest the inside centre of the wheel on whilst aligning the studs and screwing back the wheel nuts. On generic after market wheels, the spigot hole inside the wheels is a lot bigger than the spigot on the car. So what you need to do in this case is fit spigot locating rings. These are just rings of aluminium or hard plastic, that fit over the spigot on your car and then have a proper fit with the spigot hole on the wheel. If you don't have the spigot taking all the weight of the car, chances are you'll break one or more studs when you drive the car hard or have to brake hard. Remember the wheel nuts are simply there to hold the wheel on, NOT support the weight of the car. Also, as there is nothing to centre the wheel, you'll notice the wheels go in and out of balance because as you drive around, they'll move around on the hub.





It is quite normal to alter the size of wheel when fitting alloys. When changing to alloys - you can replace with the same size of wheel, and keep the same size tyre, or move up to 13" wheels. The larger the wheel and the smaller the tyre profile the more impact the wheel chosen will have on the overall look of the car.

The important thing is to keep the same overall tyre diameter. This is done by using a lower profile tyre. Increasing the tyre width and reducing the profile height will give the vehicle different handling characteristics. The car will be a lot more responsive when cornering, but a lot more sensitive to bumps and irregularities in the road.

To give you an indication of what can be done if you want to change to a bigger wheel.Take the first number of your tyre size (this is the width of the tread) and multiply it by the second number (this is the profile height expressed as a percentage) and then divide by 100. You now have the height of one sidewall in millimetres.

Multiply it by 2 (for top and bottom sidewalls) and divide this by 25.4 to convert to inches and add it to the third number of your tyre size (the rim diameter in inches) to give the overall diameter in inches.

If you want to convert back to millimetres multiply by 25.4

Wheel Size

Two measurements, the Rim Diameter and the Rim Width, normally determine the wheel size.
Rim Width/Diameter



The �Offset� of a wheel measures the distance between the wheel centreline and the wheel mounting face and is measured in millimetres.

It is extremely important that wheels of the correct offset are used in order to maintain the correct track of the vehicles.




Offset



Most Modern vehicles are front-wheel drive, and as such generally require positive offset wheels. The main exception to this rule is 4x4 vehicles, which often use negative offset wheels.

Clearance

It is, of course, extremely important that the clearance Pitch Circle Diameter of both the vehicle body work and steering/suspension components are maintained. Failure to do so would most likely cause damage to both the tyre/wheel assembly as well as the body of the vehicles. Clearance is achieved by selecting a wheel of the correct size and type of tyre. Quality alloy wheel suppliers can give such information.

Pitch Circle Diameter (PCD)

The P.C.D. can be defined as the diameter (in millimetres) of an imaginary circle drawn through the centre of the stud holes on the wheel and/or the vehicle wheel hub.

When new wheels are required, it is essential that they have the correct P.C.D. for the vehicle concerned.Just because a wheel from one vehicle has the same PCD and offset as the wheel from another does not mean they are interchangeable - the centre bore of the wheel and hub must also be the same to ensure centralisation of the wheel, and the shape of the spokes must ensure clearance of the brake calipers. Many manufacturers use the same wheel fitments as others, but some are unique.

Pitch Circle Diameter



[B]Wheel Location on Hub

Adaptor / Spigot Ring Arrangement Motor vehicle manufacturers use a central location collar on the stub axle hub in order to accurately locate the wheel. The wheel collar diameter varies, depending on the make of vehicle.

Many replacement allow wheel manufacturers use an adapter (spigot ring) to vary the diameter of the locating hole. In this way, a particular wheel can, by changing the spigot ring, be used on a variety of vehicles.



Wheel Location On Hub



As an example, TSW Spigot rings should always be fitted without the tapered edge facing the vehicle hub. This is to allow easy and accurate location of the ring onto the hub collar.

Upstepping to High Performance

Legal and illegal wheel/tyre combinationsVehicle performance can be maximised by selecting a lower profile tyre and larger wheel diameter combination. Care must be taken to select the appropriate replacement wheel / tyre combination to avoid problems.

For example, it is a legal requirements that the tyre and wheel assemblies stay within the body of the car. The fitting of larger diameter replacement wheels is referred to as �up-stepping�. Up-stepping�Plus One� or �Plus Two� denotes how much larger the wheel diameter is.

This approach of �up-stepping� allows the tyre section width to be increased whilst maintaining the correct overall diameter. This allows the optimisation of cornering force and grip whilst maintaining the original gearing of the vehicle.

Aspect Ratio

Aspect ratio is the ratio of section height to section width. It should be noted that in general, tyres with a lower section height (i.e. where the aspect ratio is lowered) have a higher cornering force and therefore improved performance-handling characteristics.

Aspect Ratio



When you have bought your new alloy wheels, you will need the special nuts to fit them to the hub. Stud threads vary, so dont rush out and buy the first set of wheel nuts you see at a bargain price because they may not fit and will strip the thread on the studs. Then you'll need to buy new studs and either fit them yourself or pay a garage to do it for you.

Alloy wheels need special studs so that they fit inside the indent in the wheel and tighten up onto the stud properly. Normal nuts used on steel wheels are not suitable, as the nut will probably only go halfway down the stud, and when you brake suddenly or with normal driving over a period of time the nuts will work loose, or wear away the alloy hole in the wheel making the wheel useless, and the worse scenario would be the studs breaking and the wheel coming off completely.

Rover Alloys use Rover nuts, many other manufacturers use either generic nuts or special nuts to fit their own brand of wheels. These nuts are not interchangeable, you can't use Rover nuts on some alloy wheels, and vice versa.
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  #29  
Old 14-12-10, 11:08
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealglover View Post

For the sake of less than 10, not fitting spigot rings seems ludicrous to me
And advising someone else not to bother, seems pretty pointless too.
Very good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealglover View Post
Sorry mate, but that's possibly the worst safety related advice I've seen on here
Based on cost vs implication... not far off either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71075 View Post
no argument here mate , just a discussion but i'm going to need a little more than "not fitting them is not safe"
Is for discussion yes and as for a little more than not safe...

I'll try and keep this simple - i'm not good with words.

tolerences...

The spigots are not exactly there to take the weight of the van.

The spigot is there to fit the wheel within a certain tolerance. + - 0.0? mm

The tolerence, however well you've torgued the bolts, may not be achieved without the spigot (even if you think you have).

The danger is encountered from the last point, believing you've torgued and fitted within the tolerance. This can not be garantued without the spigots... it cannot - in engineering terms be garunteed.. without very accurately measuring.



Now - loading the spigots...

Should the instance occur where wheel bolts were to become lose, the spigots will evenly distribute loading and limit lateral movement, preventing shear of the bolts and failiure.

The plastic spigots compressed between the hub and wheel are much much stronger than you may think.

They offer you the chance to tighten bolts etc before damage occurs.


We use spigots on many applications, from large capacity pumps to large plant components, some are sacrificial, some directly load bearing, some as a tolerance measure, and some for other reasons.

To run with out them is foolish.

To say i have run for X miles without and i'm alive, well congratulations, now go fit some. Because your next X miles may not fair so well.

Put very simply, the potential...
Wheels works lose with out spigots... young child at the side of the road... dead.
Wheels works lose with spigots... vibration through vehicle... stop and tighten bolts... child lives.

Obviously there are many other factors, but in the worst case.

So for a tenner????

Alright.....? Yeh you....? Yehhhhh right on!
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  #30  
Old 14-12-10, 11:30
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nealglover nealglover is offline
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Default Re: spigot rings or no spigot rings that is the question

JV1 clearly knows more about this than I do.
But I based my opinions on advice very similar to what he just said above, from someone with no doubt very similar technical knowledge.
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