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Discussion Starter #1
Trying to get a definitive answer / information on:

What clutch / flywheel options for 88bhp AJT

As found in TD blue I vans like my 888 special.

I have read over the last few months about 30 threads on this subject and confused you bet :confused:!!

This question gets asked a lot so I would like to (as well as finding out the information for my own good) create a technical article; so all good and qualified (aka known not hearsay) information gratefully received. If I do make a tech article references from this thread with posts will be merged.

Or correct anything I have miss understood.

If you can not be bothered to read through one of my (as per normal) verbose posts opinions still welcome T:

Information gained so far

DMF is designed to reduce vibrations passed from engine to gearbox that can otherwise damage gearbox. Also the engine is calibrated with the DMF, the DMF is part of the idle speed damping, if you fit a solid flywheel you change the rotating inertia of the engine throughout the engines speed range.

However:

zmok (NB knowledgeable chap) said:
The 1.9td gearbox is the same as the 2.5tdi 88 one has DMF the other does not. Your gearbox will be fine its all to do with Noise and vibrational harshness figures.
zmok said:
A DMF and Clutch from GSF is the cheapest option. A few of the pp guys have solid flywheels and vr6 clutches etc....
All im saying if you fit a solid flywheel it will NOT damage your gearbox.
So may be not and SMF is fine??

The options seems to be sachs (as per TidyT's), VR6 with 2.4 single mass (aggie recommends??) and Valeo soultions that will work.

rake (early 09) said:
Out of 20 odd ajt's only 3 clutches have gone. Its largley subjective as to whether it will go or not
Think in that case I would not risk it with standard then :ILU: :* thats 15% :eek:. It is not clear if these were old or new clutches though!

Any more than 155 bhp and you will eat the standard DMF / clutch, this appears to be a given, NB standard PP gets to around 150 or under.

Seems the cost of the works should be between <= to £600 and £800 pounds at a garage for flywheel and clutch kit 6 - 9 hours labour.

questions

Any info on the beefed up clutch from VW central :confused: ? referenced in a few places but never heard of it apart from very old threads?

Any more info on the valeo method from Sonesy? How does one go about this? Advantages / disadvantages.

soansey said:
No mine was the Valeo one laithed down 1.5mm to fit a Helix uprated clutch. Was the only way at the time i could find something that didn't slip,had tried 3 different clutches before that. Have heard not so shining reports about Helex since buying mine but have had no trouble at all and it has had a hammering at times.
Sachs clutch kits any one running on AJT advice / how much ?

Crank shaft snapping :confused: WTF ?

Is there actually any problem in the 88bhp set up with SMF?

Part numbers methodology how I might acquire any of this stuff.

Thread references - some of the more handy ones I have read LOL:

TidyT has problems with replaced DMF slipping after 2000 miles on PP - http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21135

General advise not that useful - http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28704

Some negatives on the SMF http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62622

SMF vs DMf - http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51598

Conspiracy changes to VR6 info from Aggie - http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43619

interesting stuff - http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36982
 

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My 88bhp has done nearly 103k now and its started slipping as well:( Having spoken to a few different mechanics, they have all said go with the single flywheel conversion kit. Apparently its a common thing on some fords to be converted away from the dmf set-up.

So reading through everything its a pre 96 2.4d flywheel, uprated 228mm vr6 clutch, and I guess you use the 2.4d pressure plate?

I have had a price from GSF for the DMF kit which is 197+ vat. But they don't do a conversion kit:(
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have also read a few references (one on here but can not find it) and one on the Brickyard that changing to the SMF can induce failure of the crank shaft :confused:

It seems to be one of those things though where someone suggested it at one point and people say but has no grounding in reality, may be someone knows?

I have PM'd all the protagonists in previous threads too for their input :cool: hope they come on-line and share the knowledge!

Looks like the Sachs system may be the way to go but it looks like it is about £200 more for the parts than going the 2.4d / conversion kit fly and VR6. No idea which pressure plate you use :confused:

To be fair I am going to take it to a garage once I have all the information to be done as the process on axle standards sounds like a bit of a nightmare.

FYI mines only done under 70K and is juddering when setting off, very high peddle and slippery when setting off. It did spend most of its early days central London traffic though :ILU:
 

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One more thing to add - I contacted brickwerks who do this kit:

Solid Conv

to ask them about the advantages of a solid FW and they said its only important for tuned vans. *shrug*
 

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I'm pretty sick with this topic now and I promised myself that the last post i made on it would be my last.

The internet is a minefield of information and I'm afraid some of it just isn't true.

I have changed over 300 dmfs and I was workshop foreman for nmh in swindon when Ford had major problems with them. Therefore I like to think I have experience to comment on the pros and cons. But i have limited experience with pp vans.

The key word there is helps. The amount it helps is not massive.

Vehicle makers have to make technological progress. DMFs are just one way of altering the Noise and vibrational harshness figures. They can say that their engines etc.. are getting smoother. (although by how much is debatable)

For the record - On a T4 88/102 I would always fit a flywheel and clutch - because they are so cheap. - under £200 for both.

DMF's are good in theory, but seem to fall down in practice - if the DMF fails prematurely and takes out the bell housing and the gearbox casing, Starter etc.... Which probably would have years left in them if you had a SMF.

My last post on this - make your own decisions based on circumstances and fact.
 

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Just to add to the thread:
I put a Valeo solid in mine and have covered 6,000 miles and not had a problem yet with the clutch.
When I first installed it it showed one of my engine mountings was weak (bottom arm) but that may have been down to the poor old dual mass slipping.
For the first 4,000 miles I ran Rakes Stanadyne's (well 4 of his plus one matched by a local specialist (long story))
The last 2,000 miles have been done with standard nozzles back in and a remap by Chipwizards. (119 BHP)
I did notice a little vibration with the old engine mounting but once replaced it's as smooth as the DM.
I drive like a loony every time a boy racer attempts to overtake from the lights etc so it's driven quite hard some times.
When I bought the clutch I first went for a LUK DM kit and thought the engineering quality and finish was poor. I took this back to replace it with the Valeo and the quality was noticeable straight away, It also came with new bolts and clutch bearing.
I must add that being an oldie who used to mess around with old 2.8 ltr V6 Fords which had about 130bhp a dual mass flywheel was unheard of and gearboxes used to "clunk" when they were new. It never did us any harm. H:
 

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Hello.

My current set up is the Valeo solid flywheel with 1.5mm laithed from the face (to allow for clearence) fitted with a Helix clutch plate. I have run up tp 220bhp with it and no problems, however i do get back lash from the gearbox whilst left ticking over in neutral. This does not bother me as the nature of my van is not a polite one but could be a problem for many. I would not recommend this route for the average person unless you are looking for a lot of power/torque. I have done near 20k with this clutch and have confidence that i can put more power through it, should know more on this soon as will be starting my next upgrade in the near future.


Cheers Christian.:ILU:
 

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Hello.

My current set up is the Valeo solid flywheel with 1.5mm laithed from the face (to allow for clearence) fitted with a Helix clutch plate. I have run up tp 220bhp with it and no problems, however i do get back lash from the gearbox whilst left ticking over in neutral. This does not bother me as the nature of my van is not a polite one but could be a problem for many. I would not recommend this route for the average person unless you are looking for a lot of power/torque. I have done near 20k with this clutch and have confidence that i can put more power through it, should know more on this soon as will be starting my next upgrade in the near future.


Cheers Christian.:ILU:
What do you call a lot of power/torque? Van running standard pp 150bhp, or more than that?
 

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From what i have learn't on here a good std clutch should stand 150bhp or a valeo vr6 clutch is a good option if your std one is getting beyond its best.
I got 172bhp from my first PP and neither of these was any good for mine, both slipped. So thats when i looked into something a little different and my mate and i came up with the clutch i have now and has been fine with the further modifications i have done along the way.
At the same time as we were putting together my clutch Will (Tidytransporters) on here came up with the Sachs kit from America which was about £600 i think back then which is a straight bolt in unit that can take the power well. Might be best to contact him on this one as i have never tried it myself.
I have also heard good things about the clutch that Steve (Aggie) has been fitting to vans, but again not had any personal experience so would be best to ask him the details on that one.

Hope this helps a little.

Christian.:ILU:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Cheer every one so far!

So to summarise so far:

- The SMF is fine, the gearbox won't be affected and the extra vibration is minimal / not really noticeable. I'll be taking Zmok's word for this I have read a lot of posts of his on the subject and only read circumstantial arguments for the DMF; plus he is one seriously experienced chap.

- Unless you are going seriously powerful (Like Soansey, Dantro and to a lesser extent TidyT's) the SMF and VR6 clutch is the way forward.

Still want to know:

-More about the Sach's kit (hoping Will, will be along soon for some input on that)? Is it worth it for basic PP?

-Any one got more details on the exact parts and kits for the Valeo / 2.4 / VR6 conversion (are any of these one and the same)?

-Would love some input from Aggie!!!!

- The VW central clutch / rakes versions any info?

- Is the crank shaft problem 100% bovine excrement LOL:?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
My honest opinion is leave it standard power then you won't have any problems
but my clutch is done in and I want my van to go up hills in 5th @ 80 (indicated) without getting slower and accrate more quickly.

Only going PP 150 not going silly BHP, is your van still giving you grief or somthing :*:*
 

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Cheer every one so far!

So to summarise so far:

- The SMF is fine, the gearbox won't be affected and the extra vibration is minimal / not really noticeable. I'll be taking Zmok's word for this I have read a lot of posts of his on the subject and only read circumstantial arguments for the DMF; plus he is one seriously experienced chap.

- Unless you are going seriously powerful (Like Soansey, Dantro and to a lesser extent TidyT's) the SMF and VR6 clutch is the way forward.

Still want to know:

-More about the Sach's kit (hoping Will, will be along soon for some input on that)? Is it worth it for basic PP?

-Any one got more details on the exact parts and kits for the Valeo / 2.4 / VR6 conversion (are any of these one and the same)?

-Would love some input from Aggie!!!!

- The VW central clutch / rakes versions any info?

- Is the crank shaft problem 100% bovine excrement LOL:?
If your crankshaft snaps then I will come round and eat the rest of your van - along with the mondeo gearbox that someone says will fit.

2.4d/1.9d/td's don't have a DMF - They seem to cope just fine without it


Even if you were to fit a SMF and your gearbox had a problem then who would be able to tell if you would have had the problem anyway with a DMF???

From what I can see DMF's exploding destroy more gearboxes per year than SMF's so say vibration problems.

I can feel myself getting quite emotional now.

Time for my tablet
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Cheers Zmok T: you are a legend :D
crank shaft problems =



Now breath!!! LOL: In with happiness out with anger LOL:
 
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Whats wrong Dan, never thought i would hear you say something like that??:confused:
Just fed up with the noisey engine mate and constant niggles :( did yours rattle or just rumble like a good un. Just think all this pursuit for something that it was never designed to do is a waste of time, I had 5 wonderful year with my van and no problems then started to mess with the umph and nothing but shit
 

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My engine has always been sweet but had a lot of trouble with the mapping,at times i wanted to set light to it. The suspension has been the worst i think as you are going that quick the front just feels like its going to explode!.
I'm sure you will get there in the end.T:
Even now i take the van off the road every few months and drive the car for a bit of luxury and smoothness.
Chin up mate.:ILU:
 

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Great to see someone trying to compile some definitive information on this A:

My van was originally an 88bhp model but has been making 130bhp for the last 3 years and 50K+ miles after adding an intercooler and a remap. Not long after upping the power the clutch gave way so a SMF and VR6 clutch were fitted. Since fitting the SMF the clutch has been faultless, however I had to change the gearbox around a year ago due to it making a whining noise. While the gearbox was out I was going to replace the clutch but it looked almost new even though it had covered 30k miles so it was re-fitted with a replacement second hand gearbox, a year on and the replacement gearbox is now starting to whine too!

So in summery, I have had no problems with the clutch after fitting a SMF but I have had problems with the gearbox, whether or not the gearbox problems are due to excess ware and tare from the SMF there is no real way of telling I suppose?
 
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