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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
From 2015, the Major of London has just proposed that all vehicles entering London must meet EU4 standards for Nitrous Oxide (NOx) emissions...

... meaning that all EU3 T4's and T5's built up to January 2006 currently exempt would not comply with the LEZ rules and would be subject to the £100 per day tax for the privilege of dropping your folks off at Heathrow from 2015.

The new NOx standard may also include "lean burn" or "FSI" petrol engined vans which run hotter than old skool type engines, so this should not affect petrol engined Transporters and Caravelles...

... but it could include those converted to run on natural gas and lpg - the legal framework is laid out in EU law, so no stone will be left unturned if the need arises.

It is unfortunate that we are among the first in the firing line, but, if it's any consolation, they may even bring 4x4's and MPV's into line with us, and they haven't ruled out extending the lower weight limit for motorcaravans either, which could bring your recycled 800 and 888 Special based campers and T25 diesel campers into their scheme...

With the UK unlikely to meet EU targets on air pollution and facing hefty fines as a consequence, the chances of fighting this are very slim - multifunction vehicles of our type are in the minority, so why should they care?

Also, we can expect to see LEZ's rolling out across major towns and cities in the UK.

LEZ's are already in place in Oxford and Norwich for Public Service vehicles (buses and coaches), and it's on the cards at Reading for lorries (with a different set of rules to those of London :*). An LEZ is also being proposed for Sheffield.

So, the prospect of each LEZ being different could make life very difficult for us in the UK (interestingly, this is not the case in Germany, which operates a simple, efficient universal badging system for 5 or 10 Euros, depending on who you know)...

As with the current standard, there are retrofit abatement techniques available at great cost, which will require an additional annual emissions test to be carried out at Department of Transport sites, over and above the MOT, for an additional fee - of course.

If anyone ever doubted the value of this Forum, then this must surely be the one reason to keep it strong, united and alive...

 

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Having check the TFL sight for the LEZ before I bought my van to make sure it complied so that I didn't have to change my van in 2012, I think some for of legal action will be called for. I deliberately bought a van that complied.:bhd
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Where that come from ,theres nothing on tfl sight about this ?
http://www.london.gov.uk/media/press_releases_mayoral/plans-announced-tackle-pollution-londons-dirtiest-roads

which looks like a response to this

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmenvaud/229/229we23.htm

Theres is info already available at Department for Transport testing stations but this info has not been rolled out to the motor trade, which is, frankly, scandalous. And to cap it all, this has been on the cards since 2003, but the info has not been released, or easily accessable - re my initial research and extensive correspondence with TFL from two years ago. Boy, do I feel cheated.

Talking of MOT's and VOSA, it is proposed that any engine mods carried out on vehicles will be subject to the new IVA tests that I've discussed elsewhere.

These additional measures, and others which don't concern Transporters, are being kept aside for the moment but they are options being considered to meet these air pollution targets...

or to put it another way...

As I see it...

measures to offset pollution from air traffic flying to and from Heathrow (which is inside the LEZ) - and the delays in updating the Intercity trains coming out of Paddington.

If we object strongly enough then they may introduce some concession for us (pre '73 vehicles are exempt), but our taxes may have to go up to meet these EU fines.

The scrappage scheme has brought about no change to overall transport emissions over and above the general downward trend, partly because it was a typical half baked Government scheme (unlike the one in Germany - again - which included secondhand vehicles up to a certain age).

I do not foresee myself being in a position to purchase an equivalent 2015 compliant vehicle - i.e. a 2006 on T5 - let alone being able to afford to maintain one. (You'll be in the hands of the Gods that it has had the right oil put in it and it hasn't got a knackered camshaft and injectors).

Another point I'd like to make is that the most polluting VR6 and V6 Caravelles could be exempt as they are not equipped with these "lean burn" engines...

So, can we expect an influx of American (18mpg - as quoted by the EPA) V6 204bhp Eurovans to our shores, as the Yanks don't seem to like them?

"Having check the TFL sight for the LEZ before I bought my van to make sure it complied so that I didn't have to change my van in 2012, I think some for of legal action will be called for. I deliberately bought a van that complied.:bhd"

Yes, Stressed, I'm sorry that my efforts to advise everyone have been fruitless - and I've just sunk another grand into my Camper...
 

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[I]"Having check the TFL sight for the LEZ before I bought my van to make sure it complied so that I didn't have to change my van in 2012, I think some for of legal action will be called for. I deliberately bought a van that complied.:bhd"[/I] Yes, Stressed, I'm sorry that my efforts to advise everyone have been fruitless - and I've just sunk another grand into my Camper...[/QUOTE] Not your fault mate. I did the LEz check before buying the van and joined this sight once I'd bought it!
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Not your fault mate. I did the LEz check before buying the van and joined this sight once I'd bought it!
... but bringing all the info together as a layperson and checking it, including all the CO2, fuel consumption, type approval and weight data took months - all in my spare time.

It was this research that formed the basis of my correspondence with VW Commercials (whose customer care department seemed unaware of the situation), Transport For London, The Mayor, Department For Transport and DEFRA, VOSA and the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the RAC Foundation and the AA.

It appeared - at the time - that these bodies were not talking to each other about this issue, let alone being aware that these changes were on the cards. Some of the replies conspired to make me look foolish - some were complimentary, though. Maybe, I asked the wrong questions...

Of course, Government agencies must have known, as well as Wolfsburg and Hannover, but the info could have hindered trade over the last few years.

This info may not have filtered through the ranks, rendering motor vehicles on a par with white goods - not very Green and an insult to our intelligence (?); especially as our vehicles have historically been dearer than others, and therefore viewed as longer term investments, both as new and secondhand vehicles - hence the dominence of VW brands in the secondhand market, at premium prices - even the older ones.

The only proviso for any future changes on the TFL website for compliant vehicles are the words "at this time"....

I feel another round of letter writing coming on...
 

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steve don,t get in stress it is not your fault the tfl can,t make its mind up & you are right about 2015 anybody who does not believe you should go to there local vosa station & yes reading is about to join up for lorries coaches & vans over 3.5 ton. most vosa stations have list of engine models that meet the rules. that they use.
See you wednesday mate
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
steve don,t get in stress it is not your fault the tfl can,t make its mind up & you are right about 2015 anybody who does not believe you should go to there local vosa station & yes reading is about to join up for lorries coaches & vans over 3.5 ton. most vosa stations have list of engine models that meet the rules. that they use.
See you wednesday mate
I'm not stressed - but I'm not about to roll over either...

I still think that our vehicles should be classed the same as the 4x4's and MPV's as per the MOT but it looks like the goal posts are about to change.

"so that would make a lot of vws around london near worthless . No one would buy knowing the LEZ coming in 2015."

It will certainly effect our vans. I'm only looking at it from our point of view - don't forget all the other marques of van and camper van out there, and this includes imports as well...

As and when the other measures are brought in, the folks that will suffer most are those with large families - look how much a 2006 T5 Caravelle is, let alone late T5 Campers - and the prices for splits and bays will go through the roof, making them uninsurable - history repeating itself, as they were uninsurable in the sixties - when they were new.

Bang goes our way of life...
 

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its all a con its just another scam to get people off the road were every were in london is getting so over populated every ones coming to a small island that is sinking GREAT BRITAIN yer great .......
seems like the only way around it is to get a recon engine but who knows wat year because every year there changing it ....you build a camper to get away from it all and they want to take that away from us aswell while there building more runways for planes......
 

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your be fine for a some years yet ive got to 2012 what a joke .hopefully when it all comes in.the fitters or something would be cheaper.:*
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
its all a con its just another scam to get people off the road were every were in london is getting so over populated every ones coming to a small island that is sinking GREAT BRITAIN yer great .......
seems like the only way around it is to get a recon engine but who knows wat year because every year there changing it ....you build a camper to get away from it all and they want to take that away from us aswell while there building more runways for planes......
Lowering the weight limit for Campers is an option open to them, but they'll have to round up car derived vans (i.e. Caddies and Astravans) at the same time to make it stick.
 

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Hi All.

In 2008 I had to sell, for next to nothing, a perfectly good lorry to comply with the new LEZ rulings. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to go straight to the 2012 compliant vehicle as they were far too expensive. Just as well it seems. I also owned a van and, realising this too will be non compliant in 2012, went onto the TFL LEZ compliance checker site last month and purchased a suitable vehicle. I have been weighing up the cost of replacing my lorry. At around £30k for a 2012 compliant vehicle it's touch and go, at my age, whether it would be worth it, I have about 15 years work left but I don't really want to be driving a HGV at 65, so I reckon 10 years at most. Totally by accident, i.e., overhearing a conversation then finding this forum, I here there is to be a further restriction on emissions in 2015. None of the radio advertisements or the LEZ checker site mention 2015. Indeed, as mentioned here, it seems you have to go to a Vosa testing station to get the low down. (Does anyone see the link between this and the "Hyperspace By-Pass plans in The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy?) A 2015 compliant, second hand lorry, i.e. a Euro 5 engined lorry, will set me back in excess of 50 grand if I'm lucky (£60k more like it). This also means my newly purchased van may have only 4 years life in London (haven't checked yet).
So, thanks to the deceitfulness of this and the last government, the mayors of London and TFL, I very nearly wasted £30,000.
It is definately not viable to spend £60,000, even if I had £60,000, just to work for the next 10 years.
This, and succesive governments have done their best to kill off the small businessman. It prefers big business every time with fat cats on massive wages and staff on low pay.
So, next week I'm forced to sell my lorry as, nearer the end of the year, when everyone has to, it will be worthless and the price of 2012 compliant vehicles will no doubt sky rocket, (£40k?)
This country cares nothing for it's hard working people.
If anyone knows of a job for an honest grafter please let me know.

Den.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yes, you have to speak to a Vosa officials to get this news, and I found a link on the Mayor's pages but not TFL's.

That link has been removed or amended to say thet the Euro 4/5 emissions requirements for 2015 will only apply to taxi's and buses.

I know what I read though and like yourself I am deeply suspicious - so until someone tells me otherwise (and no one has), I will stand by my comments that if the UK cannot meet it's European emissions obligations then owners of any vehicle that is not EU4 compliant needs to be aware that they may have to pay the LEZ charge to collect their folks from Heathrow (for instance).

Options open to Transport For London to widen the scope of the LEZ are to lower the weight limit for vans and campers which will bring diesel Type 25's into play - then target all lpg conversions because their nitrous oxide emissions are higher. Then bring in larger cars, and so on, and so on, until emissions levels come down far enough that the UK doesn't have to pay hefty fines, which we will have to pay for through our tax (that is something else they are not telling you).

To be fair to the Major and TFL, they are looking at other measures first, but there are no guarantees.
 

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My 92 2.4d Westy isn't compliant but i'm looking to downplate it to under 2500kg. Will I be wasting my time come 2015 and have to get rid of it then ?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Downplating is still a good bet, and it is a relatively minor one off expense - speak to your local VOSA goods vehicle testing station -you'll have to be quick because they are closing as truck and bus testing is moving to the private sector, just like cars and vans.

Moving the goal posts re the weight limit is an option open to Transport For London, as well as bringing in LPG vehicles for their high NOx emissions (I recall talking about this way back in 2002, but heard nothing until this) - so they may or may not change the 2500kg limit. If they hit their emissions targets with the measures already in place then they won't need to.

The implications of the country not hitting these EU imposed emissions targets will hit us all with increased taxes as the country will have to pay huge fines, so it's kind of not TFL's or the Mayor's fault - they're just trying to find solutions.

I reckon high fuel prices will do the trick on their own...
 

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What happens to the fine money, it will only be wasted by the EEC, who signed up to this in the first place. Has the country gone mad. Sometimes I wish we were more like the french they would be protesting by now. Why Why do we let them get away with it.
 

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I'm going to have to go a read the info on this again. I live right on the edge of the London 'emission's' zone, with the 'you are entering the zone' signage a few hundred meters from my road end.

I received a pamphlet a couple of months ago, and when I gave it a cursory glance, I thought I was exempt, as I had a Caravelle which is classed as a car right from the off. Having less than 8 seats, as its the 7 seat executive, I'm under the LEZ requirements. I'll just go and double check that! But the measurement changing incrementally, I can fully believe would happen in time. After all, its the way they have done it with other initiatives (congestion zone). Softly massaging the boundaries. This is already the tightening of the existing emission zone.

Old engines are noticeably less efficient, but hitting us with a stick is not the way go.

I have a new BMW 3 diesel loan car just now as the T4 is in the coach works after a bump. It returns twice the fuel consumption of my rig! ...fantastic. It even has an engine switch-off function sitting at stand still. So I can appreciate there are better/newer ways to drive the economy (excuse the pun), but peoples needs and abilities must be taken into the decision pot.

Steve, good work!
 
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