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Full of Cr*p....
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Well....timing should be at 55 (up to 58) for best performance.
If it's jumping around, it means the ECU can't compensate for the error.
You may be 1 tooth out on the belt, or the adjuster is set wrong.
Does the idler also jump about on the fuel timing belt.....it has a pointer that "should" be relatively stable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thanks for you reply, I have checked the belt. The belt is in excellent condition and there is no slack. I found the idler with the pointer and the pointer is jumping. Please see the video I have just recorded of this.


I will point out now that this van was running well before fitment of a replacement (used) wiring loom. Mechanically, the pump and belt havnt been touched so I cant image that the timing is incorrect through the belt.

I am starting to suspect the fuel timing solenoid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Hello guys,
This forums gone quiet yet I am still carrying out testing.

Needle Lift Sensor, this was disconnected and tested for resistance cold then hot.

Cold = 108 Ohms
Hot = 123 Ohms

Disconnecting this did change the engines parameters as the engine lurches at disconnection. This leads to me to believe the fuel pumps electronic adjustment is working correctly as its clearly not seized.

I also checked what happened to the pointer on the tensioner of the fuel pump and disconnecting this made no difference to the magnitude of bouncing of the tensioner as shown in the youtube video.

I noticed that the timing graph stopped dead when disconnecting this sensor, but I am believing that VCDS is taking reading for the graph from this sensor, so that's expected.

I have also checked the fuel temperature sensor, I am receiving 2.2k Ohms on this sensor. I cant find anything online regarding the correct resistance here but I am assuming that this is okay considering its not a open circuit. Also I can see the fuel temperature rising from 132 - 150 when the vans warming up.

I have checked all the continuities at the 10 pin plug in the sump pan to the ECU and all is fine.

I checked the cam timing belt and the condition seems okay, the tensioner pointer isn’t moving that I can see. It is noisy this side though.

I have taken all the readings from VCDS maybe someone sees something that could indicate another potential problem. These were taken when the vans temp was at running temp apart from the timing graph which was taken just before running temp.
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I believe I have now ruled everything electronic, and therefore the only thing left is for a full timing adjustment on the pump and cam.

Then if that doesn't solve this, then I guess the injectors to be overhauled.

Any thoughts and inputs appreciated.
 

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Hi Joe,

The timing is very retarded (common) & has to be corrected before further diagnosis. I would carry out a full timing reset including replacing both belts & correctly torquing the crankshaft bolt - this will make a profound improvement if carried out correctly - keyway chatter on the crank sprocket causes timing scatter.

HH
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Hi HH,

Thanks for your reply. I already had the van booked into VW specialist garage with long waiting list and is due in on monday, I originally booked it in for fault finding and repair. I have just spoken to them and asked them to price up full re-timing including water pump, both belts and all new tensioners. I also asked they price up for a new crank pulley and crank sprocket and they said it looks expensive.

Are they saying it looks expensive because the labour of getting the timing correct can be excessive with these T4s? Because to me its looks like a timing belt replacement job with exchange of a few extra components which would be easily accessible during the work.

The vans done nearly 300k so im expecting the crank pulley to be knackered. I am seriously consider carrying out this work myself, considering im a marine engineer just lacking some tools. From what I see online re-timing the engine is not a difficult job just time-consuming.

I asked the garage to price up for timing including clock gauge on the pump and he said it can be done via VCDS instead?

If I was to carry out this work from home, do I need to time the fuel pump via clock gauge?

I am looking to buy these tools:

Injection pump static timing adjustent gauge
Diesel Engine Camshaft Locking Timing Tool Kit VW LT 2.4 2.5 SDI TDI
Halfords 300nm torque wrench

Do I require any other specialist tools for this work?
Can you confirm what the crankshaft bolt tension is set to?

Thank you for your continued support.
 

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Hi Joe,

From your responses I'm pretty sure you will walk this - it's not actually too bad once you understand the principles (most VW 'specialists' do not).

Yes & yes to the links (there's a duplication in the camshaft alignment tool). You will also need a ¾" drive socket set - I've snapped a couple of top quality ½" drives doing this job, luckily they have a lifetime warranty.

The crankshaft bolt (AKA the bolt of death) is torqued at 160Nm + 180° which is probably near 500 lbf ft; I use a 3ft long ¾ drive torque wrench (£100 from Aldi !!!) & can just get the required 180°, it's so tight. A new bolt & diamond washer must be used & if you're going here change the water pump too.

I also suggest you buy a cheap USB endoscope camera (Amazon).

Get all the bits together & we'll go through this, it'll be fine (y)

HH

Edit: almost forgot, a crucial tool here is a good quality pulley counter hold, not one of those awful Y shaped things from Ebay, get a Sealey or similar.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Thanks for confirming that, I have been seeing conflicting numbers for the AJT, someone people throwing around 450nm torque which I thought was excessive. Iv ordered a 3ft torque wrench from Amazon 3/4 drive.

The eBay kit comes with a pulley counter holder with 3/4 inch drive, I could get a 1m breaker bar to attach to it. I'm finding it difficult to find a purpose made straight long handled pulley counter tool for the 2.5 engine.

Should have everything ready by Monday.
 

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The eBay kit comes with a pulley counter holder with 3/4 inch drive, I could get a 1m breaker bar to attach to it. I'm finding it difficult to find a purpose made straight long handled pulley counter tool for the 2.5 engine.
Oddly enough Draper used to do a timing kit for the 2.5 tdi which included a full size pulley tool, but they’ve recently only been available as nos items, and very rare. Draper code ETK30/32813
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Still I guess it’s not very useful afterwards, hang it over your mantlepiece maybe.

Edit: I think the torque figure is about 480nm but is applied as 160nm + 180 degrees.

Edit2: I just spotted this but it may be rubbish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·

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The 450nm is for the old AAB engines which use the same pulley system but a shorter crank bolt.

The timing duty cycle in group 22 is at 80% at idle - suggests very retarded timing as Hobbyhorse said and the ECU is trying to compensate for that but running out of adjustment. Remember you have two belts and two tensioners - the crank/cam belt tensioner could be on its way out.

The 180 degrees can be achieved with a cheap (50 quid) torque multiplier which is how I did mine. It involves a little more time to do but avoids having to buy scaffolding poles and hernia belts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
The 180 degrees can be achieved with a cheap (50 quid) torque multiplier which is how I did mine. It involves a little more time to do but avoids having to buy scaffolding poles and hernia belts.
Interesting device, not come across one of these before. I have a long Torque Wrench coming, I will see how I get on with this first and if I have to upgrade then so be it. Thanks for the recommendation.
 

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You’ll need a decent length torque wrench anyway for the 160nm needed for the camshaft-pump pulley, and the crankshaft bolt.
The extra 180deg for the latter is usually achieved using a normal 3/4” breaker bar and extension poles. Tippex marks are used so you know when 180deg is reached - you don’t care about torque values here, and it’s mucho dinero for an accurate wrench above 300nm.
The torque multiplier is perfect for this job as rc_tech pointed out.
 

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In fact I just looked at the wrench you’re getting. Don’t forget that torque accuracy requires you hold it precisely on the handle, so you’ve just got 850mm to play with. If you add extension poles, then you have to mathematically factor in the length of these too.
You’re better off with a 200nm torque wrench plus multiplier and/or breaker bar for this job.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
In fact I just looked at the wrench you’re getting. Don’t forget that torque accuracy requires you hold it precisely on the handle, so you’ve just got 850mm to play with. If you add extension poles, then you have to mathematically factor in the length of these too.
You’re better off with a 200nm torque wrench plus multiplier and/or breaker bar for this job.
Thanks for your replies. Im not sure I am following what you mean though. I plan to use the draper wrench for 160nm, then I will just mark it up and use the torque wrench as a breaker bar to the 180 degrees mark. I will try a source a pole to give me extra length but at this point I dont need to worry about the wrench setting. Im not planning on hitting 450nm, just 160nm then 180 degrees movement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
The 180 degrees can be achieved with a cheap (50 quid) torque multiplier which is how I did mine. It involves a little more time to do but avoids having to buy scaffolding poles and hernia belts.
So you found one somewhere else?

The other point is 160nm+180deg is the same as using a torque wrench and going up to 480nm.
I see what you mean now :) I been looking into this, according to the calculator I would need 54 kg on power on the 840mm wrench to achieve 450nm torque. Well thats not going to happen.

I found this multiplier seems like it will do the trick?

I found a draper set on ebay, says its dispatched, I spoke to a few companies and none were actually keeping stock.
 

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That's the very same kit I have. It's incredibly roughly cast (China!) but there's enough metal in it to do the job. I had to use a 1" to 3/4" adapter with a 3/4" 27mm socket to get it to fit properly, plus remove the front bumper to get the space to turn the handle.

I can't remember the exact number but it's about a 54:1 ratio, so half that in full turns will get your 180 degrees.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
That's the very same kit I have. It's incredibly roughly cast (China!) but there's enough metal in it to do the job. I had to use a 1" to 3/4" adapter with a 3/4" 27mm socket to get it to fit properly, plus remove the front bumper to get the space to turn the handle.

I can't remember the exact number but it's about a 54:1 ratio, so half that in full turns will get your 180 degrees.
Excellent cheers
 
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