[StephenTazz]

Can anyone tell me the unladen weight of their Autosleeper, California, Carthago, or Dehler, Reimo, etc etc Motor Caravan.

I've just unearthed an EU amendment regarding Motor Caravans and taxation - if a Motor Caravan has an unladen weight (reference weight,they call it) of over 2000kg they are excluded from the M class Heavy Passenger Vehicle (i.e treated the same as N1-11 and N1-111 Light Goods Vehicles) MVEG emissions group.

Just to illustrate how this will affect us -

A Blue I 88bhp Multivan (without poptop) weighs in at 1971kg unladen

A Red I 150bhp Multivan (without poptop) weighs in at 2001kg unladen

By adding the additional 60kg weight for a poptop would make all T4b Multivans over the 2000kg threshold. However T4a Multivan unladen weights start at 1705kg

The unladen weights are not published in the Motor Caravan brochures, so any info will be gratefully received to build a picture of how much weight a Camper build will add to your panel van and Caravelle, to make it exempt from the rules...

 

[chroma andy]

all the t4 california pop tops have an unladen weight over 2,035kg

 

[StephenTazz]

all the t4 california pop tops have an unladen weight over 2,035kg

T4a's are lighter than their equivalent T4b; 4-cylinder models are lighter than 5-cylinder models; all 5-cylinder syncros are 100kg heavier than the 2wd models and autos are 30kg more than manuals.

So if a T4a California starts at 2035kg, then is it safe to assume that all T4 (and T5, but, alas, not T3) Campers will be over the 2000kg unladen weight threshold?

 

[chroma andy]

it's probably going to be pretty close depending on what you put in there

 

[StephenTazz]

A 94 5-cylinder lwb T4a Swift Carrera has an ex works dry weight of 1950kg, and a T4b AVA Isis built, with pop-top, on a 1.9TD panel van is the same, but one built on a TDI 1200kg van with a GVW of 2800kg has a payload of 570kg, giving an unladen weight of 2230kg.

So it seems that Motor Caravans with a GVW of under 2500kg (i.e. self built ones based on 800 and 888 Specials) are grouped with M1 Passenger Cars and are exempt from the LEZ...

Campers built on 1000kg and 1200kg vans and Caravelles (i.e. ex factory) with a GVW of over 2500kg will be classed as Large or Heavy Passenger Cars and will continue to be grouped with their Transporter cousins in group N1-11 and N1-111...

... unless they have a unladen weight of over 2000kg, when they qualify for special treatment (which, basically, panders to the new coachbuilt campers) under the new amendment (which in any case, this amendment cancels out in 2014 when the new Euro 6 emission rules are fast tracked in).

So why aren't large diesel SUV's (Range Rover's, X5's, M-Class ), MPV's (Voyager's, Espace, Galaxy, etc), diesel Audi A8's, Pheatons, Jaguar XJ's etc being included in the LEZ rules, when they fall into the same category as we do (yes, because they are heavy passenger cars they remain in groups N1-11 and N1-111 Light Duty Goods Vehicles under this new amendment, snuffing out the new rule which was to come into play for 2009 which placed them in group M1 - Passenger Vehicles upto 3000kg and 8 passenger seats), yet they are being clobbered with the same car tax changes?

How unfair is that???

It should be one rule for all, not a rule just for us (a small minority who make little or no impact in the grand scheme of climate change), or would they loose too many votes in the May 2008 mayor elections?

Let's hope that KL gets a right good kicking in the polls...

 

[jeffscarborough]

The Fahrzeugbrief for my Carthago malibu lists the leergewicht (dryweight) as 1955kg

 

[jeffscarborough]

The Fahrzeugbrief for my Carthago malibu lists the leergewicht (dryweight) as 1955kg

Oh... and its the high power 2.4d model I:

 

[tony c]

Stephen, sorry to be dim, but can you summarise the implications of the weight?

 

[Kleftiwallah]

I've read and re-read this thread as well and I'm lost. Could someone please enlighten me (and I suspect a few other readers). In the layest of laymans terms please! Cheers, Tony.

 

[StephenTazz]

Stephen, sorry to be dim, but can you summarise the implications of the weight?

Well, here goes...

European emissions rules for Caravelles and Window Vans (which include ex works Motor Caravans built by "VW Partners", such as Westfalia, Carthago, AutoSleepers, Bilbos, etc) are different to those for Transporters which do not have a CO2 emssions listing.

Caravelles (with up to 8 passenger seats), Window Vans and Motor Caravans are classed as Passenger vehicles and come under the same group as Polos, Golfs and the Toyota Prius. However, until 2009 "Large Passenger Cars of over 2500 GVW" are to be considered as Light Goods Vehicles, as per Transporter, for emissions purposes. (Like the vans, they didn't have to meet the Euro 3 standard until Jan 2002, whereas smaller cars had to be EU3 compliant by 2000.)

Hence the inclusion for Window Vans and Motor Caravans in the London Low Emissions Zone rules...

From 1st September 2009, these Large Passenger Vehicles are be included with the smaller cars, with the exception of Motor Caravans of over 2000kg unladen weight, which will still be considered as Light Duty Goods Vehicles for emssions purposes. This may well pander to newly built Hymers and other large coachbuilt motorhomes (including those built on T5's), but I'm afraid the likes of the lwb Westfalia California models may fall into this group as well, because the new rules cancel out the old ones - at least in the EU.

I have been in contact with Transport For London since November, and I am fighting our corner hard. I need to build a strong argument (which I think I have, by the way) to get the 2500kg GVW weight figure abolished so T4's (and other similar sized Campers) get exempted from the LEZ rules, and to bring Window Vans under the 7/8/9 seater Caravelle umbrella, ella, ella, but this new concession might throw a spanner in the works.

I have scoured the handbooks and brochures for these weights (and the CO2 emissions), and I had not come up with any concrete weights for the Motor Caravans. However, this thread has been successful, enabling me to finish the weight list, which I have posted (incomplete) in DVLA under Check Your Log Book...

... Click Here.

I see the LEZ as a template for the rest of Europe, so if we don't fight now, everywhere will gradually become no go areas for some of us, while others, with older vans that fall below the 2500kg GVW and /or 2000kg ULW thresholds will be free to roam wherever we please. This is very much a planning ahead exercise...

However since all Caravelles, Window Vans and ex-works Motor Caravans underwent the same Type Approval process I think that it is only right and proper that the whole range is treated the same - as they are with Car Tax!!!

By the way, if your T4 Motor Caravan is a late 1999 on lhd TDI model, it may already be Euro 3 compliant, as the Euro 3 engines were available in Europe long before they were here...

 

[StephenTazz]

Ex-works Motor Caravan published weights tend to be given either as Dry Weight or Mass in Running Order (MRO - with full tanks and driver) and Gross Vehicle Weight or Gross Vehicle Weight and Payload, from which the unladen weight can be deduced. Here is a definitive list of weights given over the years for you to ponder upon...

T4a January 1990 to December 1995

WV2 Motor Caravan (typical)

4-cylinder models

• 4-cylinder -

5-cylinder models

• Westfalia Exclusive lwb Hi-Top - 2260kg ULW / 2800kg GVW
• Swift Carrera lwb Hi-Top - 1950kg DW / 2800kg GVW
• Swift Royale coachbuilt - 2095kg DW / 2775kg GVW

T4b January 1996 to 2003


WV2 Motor Caravan (typical)

4-cylinder models

• Autosleepers Trooper - 1985kg MRO / 2575kg GVW
• Autosleepers Trident Hi-Top - 2053kg MRO / 2575kg GVW
• Ava Isis swb with elevating roof - 1980kg MRO / 2575kg GVW
• Bilbos Celeste with elevating roof - 1885kg MRO / 2600kg GVW

5-cylinder models

• Autosleepers Topaz lwb Hi-Top - 2283kg MRO / 2800kg GVW
• Autosleepers Clubman coachbuilt - 2430kg MRO / 3300kg GVW
• Autosleepers Gatcombe coachbuilt - 2513kg MRO / 3300kg GVW
• Autosleepers Sherbourne coachbuilt- 2670kg MRO / 3300 kg GVW
• Ava Sportstek full spec swb with elevating roof - 2230kg MRO / 2800kg GVW
• Compass Calypso coachbuilt - 2109kg MRO / 2800kg GVW

T5 March 2003 on

4-cylinder models

5-cylinder models

 

[StephenTazz]

it may be possible to downrate your camper for LEZ purposes...

http://www.svtech.co.uk/motorhomes.html