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I realise it is a bit controversial but in order for things to survive, they need to evolve.

There is a thread further down the page where a forum user feels disgruntled of the 'service' they have received from a trader.

The forum user requests if it is possible to name the trader to help others decide if they would chose to use the trader, if they knew of someone else's experience with that trader?

Do any other forum members feel that we should be allowed 'publicly' to read the 'story' and let the trader post their side?

Obviously, the most important thing is that only FACTS can be posted, but I cannot be the only one, that feels that by attempting a 'blackout', the forum is assisting in allowing cowboy traders to continue?
 

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I agree.....we should be able to post our true experiences with Traders.........my mates had a raw deal with his conversion at the hands of a local conversion company who should have horses tied outside the door as he is an utter Cowboy!
 

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As per my post on the other thread................


"This is shocking if it's all true (I'm not saying it isn't true by the way).

In my opinion, you should be able to name and shame the company by copying a formal letter / email that you have sent to the company highlighting your grievances.

This letter could state that you plan to state the facts of your case within "X" days on the forum (that they advertise on).

That way they can either address the issue, before the post if they wish, or they have the opportunity to counter your post with good notice to prepare their side of the case before it goes public.

Not that my opinion counts for much.

:* "

However, this forum policy has been questioned several times before. Always with the same outcome.
 

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If it facts shouldn't be an issue.everybody can make their mind up after reading . always two sides to every story. You just have to filter the bull shot.
 

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It's all here in black and white i'm afraid chaps :) http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/misc.php?do=showrules

Mainly this bit....

What is defamation?
It is a law created to protect individuals or organisations from unwarranted, mistaken or untruthful attacks on their reputation. This means the publication of any statement which:

  • Exposes them to hatred, ridicule or contempt
  • Causes them to be shunned or avoided
  • Discredits them in their trade, business or profession
  • Generally lowers them in the eyes of right thinking members of society
  • Posting a defamatory statement on an internet message board or community area is the same as publishing it in a newspaper or magazine and can result in a court case if a formal complaint is made. Both the publisher (in this case the VWT4 Forum) and the author (you) risk being sued for making a defamatory statement. And there is no Legal Aid for defamation.
How to avoid it
Get your facts right. In English law YOU have to prove that what you write is true, rather than the person you've targeted having to prove that you're wrong. And proving things in court can be a very difficult and costly process.

Don't make these common mistakes...
  • Repeating others...If you repeat defamatory remarks about people or organisations made by other people, you will be just as liable to be sued as they are.
  • Jumping to conclusions...
    If Mr X is seen going into Mercedes van dealership, this does not necessarily mean he's part-exchanging his VWT4 for a Vito, and will certainly not prove that he is.
  • Exaggeration...
    Be very careful about the words you use. A firm may charge more for their parts or services than the expected market rate but describing it as "ripping people off" may well be considered defamation.
  • Representing all sides...
    Presenting both sides of an argument is often good practice, but not a defence against defamation.
  • Innuendo...
    To say Mrs Y's van is not always washed/tidy/dent free, may sound harmless. But to people who know that Mrs Y owns a car Valeting company, the implication is that her company is a poor one.
  • Inference...
    If somebody was guilty of fraud once, calling him a fraudster in a way which might suggest he's still doing the same can be seen as defamation.
  • 'Allegedly'...
    In spite of its use in a popular current affairs panel game, adding the word 'allegedly' to a statement you cannot prove does not stop it being defamation.
What isn't Defamation?
You can make negative statements about a large group of individuals, like the government or a local authority, but not about any specific person within those organisations. So it is possible to defame the Prime Minister or the President of the USA, but not their governments.
Dead people cannot be defamed.​
Defending a statement
In the event that you are accused of defamation, there are three main defences...
  • Justification...
    This is the most common defence against defamation. It means that you have evidence that will stand up in a court of law that can prove what you are saying is true.
  • Fair Comment...
    Honest opinion on a matter of public interest can also be used as a defence against defamation, provided the statement was made without 'malice' and based on established facts. (In legal terms, malice means making a comment based on facts you knew to be untrue, commenting on facts without caring whether they were true or not, or simply setting out to discredit someone.)
  • Privilege...
    There are times when complete freedom of speech, without any risk of defamation, is in the public interest. For example, the Bill of Rights allows MPs to say what they like within the debating chambers of the House of Commons, so they can discuss issues without worrying about being sued. This is unlikely to ever be a defence relevant on the VWT4 Forum.
Forum Policy

The Forum Policy will always be to err on the side of caution.

Defamation laws exist to protect individuals or organisations from unwarranted, mistaken or untruthful attacks on their reputation. Posting a defamatory statement on a forum is the same as publishing it in a newspaper or magazine and can result in a court case if a formal complaint is made. Moderation helps avoid expensive legal action that could cost hundreds of thousands of pounds irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the individual case.

Both you and the VWT4 Forum can be held liable if you make a defamatory statement on the VWT4 Forum website. So we will remove comments where we have insufficient evidence to defend publication of your statement. This means the Forum moderators will be expected to err on the side of caution when considering topics that include Naming and Shaming.
 

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Forgot to mention, there is a "Trade Experiance Forum" available to subscribed members here T: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=340

And here is the explanation for this forum from Admin...

Morning folks...welcome to the Trade Experience Forum.

This section is a place to share your experiences with traders and the ONLY area of the forum where Naming & Shaming will be tolerated.

Forum rules still apply here though so please think carefully and keep your stories to the facts as you know them to be.

This section has been created as a concession to the Naming & Shaming rule that the Forum has had in place for its entire history.
There are numerous reasons that Naming & Shaming has not been allowed on the Forum and they've been well documented in debate and argument over the years so I don't intend to spend a great deal of time going over them here.

But it is clear that from time to time it would be prudent to allow some experiences of negative trading to be publicised for the benefit of people who may be considering spending some of their hard-earned.

So.....

  • This Forum is Private...it is not publicly searchable.
  • This Forum is for subscribed Forum Members Only - for viewing and posting purposes.
  • This Forum can be used to warn others of what you consider to be poor service in whatever way you deem necessary.
But.....

  • Only post information that you KNOW to be true.
  • Do not post assumptions or sweeping generalisations.
  • Make sure that you can back up your claims.
Very often someone will deal with a company and be dissatisfied with the outcome. This does not necessarily mean they are in the right though. I:
Many firms work to the standard that "the customer is always right, even when they are wrong"...perhaps this raises expectations but sometimes customers ARE wrong so please be aware that you may look foolish amongst your peers should this later turn out to be the case - don't take it badly :D


We've created this section to give members with genuine grievances a place to air them for the benefit of others but we've had to make a decision as to how to ensure it's used correctly and does not risk harming the reputation of innocent parties.

Given that the "workaround" to the Naming & Shaming Rule has always been to "PM the OP" which means the information is shared privately, we have decided that a Private forum is the best possible compromise so this forum is not publicly searchable and therefore cannot be said to be at risk of harming firms who later turn out to be innocent.

Furthermore, to ensure that folk do not simply register with the sole intention of simply making an allegation which may be malicious this forum is only for the use of subscribed Forum Members...Registered Users and guests browsing from elsewhere can see its existence but not the contents...this further supports the premise that the forum should not be publicly searchable.

Finally, to ensure the section is used correctly and fairly it will be monitored and moderated where necessary. This could mean that your posts may be edited or deleted if they do not represent a balanced and considered view of the situation which is why we've asked you to only post in the way described above...please try and avoid allegations such as "Don't go to "X"...they're all a bunch of useless...." ...comments or allegations such as this are likely to be deleted I:


Lastly...there will be times when there are outcomes to allegations.

In the past we have allowed naming and shaming where an independent authority such as a Court or Trading Standards have found in favour of the plaintiff. When this occurs we ask that you amend the thread title to show such an outcome.

Sometimes though, an allegation will later turn out to be unfounded for some reason. This may become apparent in any number of ways, often by the responses on the thread making it clear that the expectations were unreasonable for instance. Should an allegation, on the balance of probabilities be found to be malicious, untrue, incorrect or unreasonable it may be deleted.

Hopefully it is clear that this section of the forum is for forum members to discuss genuine problems in a responsible way.
T:



Simon :) :ILU:



EDIT - perhaps too focused on the negatives in my explanation...this is also a forum where you can feel free to document positive experiences (they're not the threads we have trouble with :)

 

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I agree.....we should be able to post our true experiences with Traders.........my mates had a raw deal with his conversion at the hands of a local conversion company who should have horses tied outside the door as he is an utter Cowboy!
Me too, and I bet it's the same company :(
 

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Never came across this until I joined this forum , I was a land rover owner and we all tended to say what we wanted about traders without to much rules and regs.
 

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If the trader is on this forum then why not use the, so far largely ignored, feedback feature that is built into the forum user details.

It would be better if it allowed a short comment as well as a score but is still a guide.

That way you there would be a balance between good and bad feedback. It works fine on eBay.
 

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So, in the case in discussion, it would be ok to say something like " in my opinion it has taken far too long for company X to carry out any work on my conversion bearing in mind they had my deposit in (date) and promised that the work would be done by (date) and as of today nothing has really started."
 

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Like I said in my post. In understand slander is a difficult one for you guys. But surely if the guy pays you to advertise and you only allow positive things about him you have a duty to at least privately discuss a grievances. Because if not by allowing only the the positive things through your actively helping this guy to rip people off. I know this might look like me been bitter (iam very) but been as I found this convertor purely through this forum as did many others the fact that you basically help him to continue this appauling treatment of others. It's pretty shoddy whatever some black and white piece of law states. Would people not agree. The least i would expect is the suspension of the person's account until a grievance could be proved or not.
 

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It seems you can moan about a multi-national - I had put a post on here about how rubbish the kenwood - garmin satnav is on my sportline but you can't name a dodgy small business.

Obviously advertisement is how the owners make money so if random unsolicited posts are derogatory then advertisers will stop their subs and the forum makes no money.
 

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This is my point exactly. I'm not sure what the law is but if your actively helping to promote a shoddy business and been paid for it, surely that's pretty unethical at best. On top of that you then prevent victims warning others of there treatment it all adds up to almost been as bad as the actions of the dodgy convertor in my eyes.
I'm open other options on this but I don't see how you can interpret this any other way.
 

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This is my point exactly. I'm not sure what the law is but if your actively helping to promote a shoddy business and been paid for it, surely that's pretty unethical at best. On top of that you then prevent victims warning others of there treatment it all adds up to almost been as bad as the actions of the dodgy convertor in my eyes.
I'm open other options on this but I don't see how you can interpret this any other way.
 

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Yup now been made aware of this, but as stated this carnt be searched for so for me it only came to light once the horse had bolted so to speak. I see the point in it. But it's hardly transparent is it.
Literally theres no negative public feed back on this guy so when you dig a little deeper however there are deleted posts with negative feedback. If is even been able to see one of these
I'd still have an intact van and 5 grand. As it is I carnt help feeling a little bitter that if is any of this negative feedback had come up instead of all positive I may not be up the creek without a paddle so to speak. Once the vans back in my possession I'll be sure to write a detailed report on that section and once the legal process finds in favor (there no doubt in my mind it will) I'll ask the mods if I publish the facts public.
My question remains the same however how can you take money and advertise for a shoddy services on a site people are bound to turn to for advice and not accept some responsibility for when people are shafted.
 

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Like I said in my post. In understand slander is a difficult one for you guys. But surely if the guy pays you to advertise and you only allow positive things about him you have a duty to at least privately discuss a grievances. Because if not by allowing only the the positive things through your actively helping this guy to rip people off. I know this might look like me been bitter (iam very) but been as I found this convertor purely through this forum as did many others the fact that you basically help him to continue this appauling treatment of others. It's pretty shoddy whatever some black and white piece of law states. Would people not agree. The least i would expect is the suspension of the person's account until a grievance could be proved or not.
This is my point exactly. I'm not sure what the law is but if your actively helping to promote a shoddy business and been paid for it, surely that's pretty unethical at best. On top of that you then prevent victims warning others of there treatment it all adds up to almost been as bad as the actions of the dodgy convertor in my eyes.
I'm open other options on this but I don't see how you can interpret this any other way.
It's no different to anywhere else really, libel statements can be taken down the legal channels and three entities are held accountable, The poster (You) for posting the statement, the forum Owners (FWK Ltd) for allowing the statement to be aired on a "public" forum (note the word public, which is why the "Trade Experiance Forum" is a "Private" forum). And the ISP for hosting the lible statement.

If you have been to a court of law and won your case you can actually sing on here to your hearts content but unfortunately untill its proven in a court of law and you have a legal decision there's not much we can do.

However, there's nothing to stop you posting pictures of shoddy work and saying "Tom 84 made this for me, what do you think?"

There's loads of ways of alerting members to shoddy work, You could also explain the full story on a thread and call them what you like, so longs you don't mention the company name, then invite members to PM you for their name, therefore it's not Libel.


Don't take this as the establishment jabbing the finger, I hate seeing people stitched up as much as anyone, been there, done that, to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds, this is just the only way admin will let us do it I'm afraid.

Btw, I'm only a moderator, I don't get paid, I just help where i can, So you know above is written without any bias at all T:
 
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