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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Ok now for the exciting work on that new power plant I was talking about.

In short the 8v swap I had on here earlier worked well but that engine was sadly quite old and tired. Firing another 60k+ miles on it meant it was getting on a bit. It used a little oil, still lacked power (only a 1.8 on a carb remember) and I was nursing it everywhere. Time to look for something new.

Inspiration camae from Tonic (cheers bud T:) and his 20v turbo. I wanted something with plenty of power but quite relaxed too i.e. something with the potential to be mental but have it wound back so nothingwas overly strained unlike the current 1.8 carby power plant. LPG again would probably be a big part of it. It works for me and my running costs were cheaper than a mates 175bhp T5.

So the research began and I eventually came up with the following spec.

  • 1.8T 20v AGU code engine.
  • K04 turbo. It had to be I:
  • intercooler obviously
  • Cable throttle body. Keep it simple.
  • Integrated engineering conrods
  • Qpeng engine management but after speaking with a few people including the LPG fitter I decided to go to Emerald.
  • Wideband Lambda
  • Audi TT injectors which are now changed to Genesis 440cc type
  • SPEC Stage 3 clutch
  • Bosch 044 fuel pump
  • PRINS LPG system with a valve saver kit.

Overall the above has the potential to clear 300bhp with the right map and changing from a 3bar fuel pressure regulator to a 4bar one. That is not the plan. Under 300bhp for the top endas I don't want gearbox bits left all over the road.

Here's some of the reasons behind the madness.

The K04 will obviously open the door to more power but for me it means I can wind it back a bit so that it's not running full chat.
The AGU has the bigger ports, bigger wrist pins on the pistons conrods and higher cylinder compression compared to say a BAM or AMK code. The higher cylinder compression will help a bit with the higher octane rating of the LPG.
Conrod swap is necessary in a T4 conversion in my opnion.
Emerald has switchable maps and is a crazy flexible system. I can now have a LPG specific map with the timing advanced so it will be directly suited to it. 3 available maps. 1 economy petrol, 1 LPG economy and one fun day beserk map I hope, but more discussions needed on that front
LPG and a turbo engine works very well but there are risks moreso than an NA engine. These are mainly associated with the possibility of running a lean Air Fuel ratio. Too lean and it goes BANG. Fitting a wideband lambda can help monitor that and it comes with an AFR guage so I can also see what's going on.
Emerald can also have adaptive mapping that will adjust itself according to AFR readings from the wideband lamda. Not 100% how I'll eventually set this aspect up with the LPG and stuff but I now have the option.
PRINS is probably one of the best LPG systems available at the moment. The guys that will fit the system are familiar with Emerald as well. So potentially it's a good partnership (on paper anyway)
The valve saver kit seems like a good idea to me. It just lubricates the stem seals as petrol would (additives in it) so stops premature wear supposedly.
Injector size simply means I have loads of potential for close to 300bhp if I want. First up I will not be going that far.


Anyway the good news now is that the first stage of all of that is nearly done. The engine is built, installed and running. :)

Watch this space! :ILU: :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
looking amazing! Liking that front splitter a lot.
Many thanks Lister. I've been a busy beaver!

Damn thing almost has a life of it's own now, always evolving, changing, moving. I swear it'll talk to me one day. When it answers me back I'll call in the white coats!

By the way it's worth noting that my decision to take this so far came from a rough patch that I think many of us T4 owners go through at some point. A few engine troubles or things going wrong all at once. It didn't help me with the mileage I do etc. BUT while sitting down with a cold beer one evening I decided I couldn't let it go and would spend money on getting it right.

Basically I was tempted by the dark side of a T5 but when you look at the cost of bying one and going through the whole build thing I was bit nervous. Then there's the T5 computer thing. It has a hissy fit when you change a light bulb if you're not careful and I'd need a garage for basic servicing.

With the Butty Bus I have a pretty solid vehicle which I know every nut and bolt on. I can service it myself. Job done, decision made!
 

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Awesome! You got the gas on there too? Liking the interior btw, similar to what I've been working on lately.


Also, I've got a bone to pick...everytime i google for info on t4 gearboxes and think I've got likely thread, its just you asking on some random forum about g60 diffs! Did you get anywhere with that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Awesome! You got the gas on there too? Liking the interior btw, similar to what I've been working on lately.


Also, I've got a bone to pick...everytime i google for info on t4 gearboxes and think I've got likely thread, its just you asking on some random forum about g60 diffs! Did you get anywhere with that?
Nope. :( As you now know I hunted everywhere high and low on it but the only way I could eventually figure it out was to strip a T4 box and a G60 box down. Something tells me it can't be done but I just don't know tbh. I've got a DUJ code gearbox now so the ratio's will be far better than what I originally had.

Not yet. Gas is currently scheduled to go in later this month (August 2012). Spoke to them yesterday and they're more than happy to have the van in a partially tuned condition i.e. with just an adjusted base map and they can work from there. I'll eventually need a rolling road day to get it perfect so I'll be trying to book that over the next day or so.

Cheers for the comments on the interior. I'll be loading more up on that soon!
 

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Shame! Ill put that on the list of winter projects!

Probably teaching you to suck eggs q, but a rolling road setup is vital, you simply can't hold load points when your on a real road.
 

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Looking good , looking forward to the RR numbers as looking to change my ko3s to a 4 or possibly gt28 or ihi.......
Need new rods first though, glad your back in love again !
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Looking good , looking forward to the RR numbers as looking to change my ko3s to a 4 or possibly gt28 or ihi.......
Need new rods first though, glad your back in love again !
:ILU: cheers dude.

Yup, rough patch happened 18 months ago I guess and sadly it's taken me this long to get from the initial idea to having the new engine in and running. No problem with the time for the installation just getting it started. I've Big T4 love at the moment. My biggest fear is where I'll stop :eek: I'm obviously now fully committed to the vehicle and I still have lot's to do to get it it where I want it.

More pics and info to come over the weekend, time and luck permitting along with some feedback on performance and stuff. As said it's only running on a basic map at the moment and that needs a few tweeks to get it right. But I believe that still puts it close to 200bhp. :)

TBH I'm not sure I'd want to go much bigger than a K04. Room is tight and believe it or not I reckon it varies from bus to bus. I for example haven't needed to go to slim line fans on the radiator. Others have gone that route. My Turbo Intake Pipe is a custom one. We weren't 100% sure an off the shelf one would work. The 80mm straight through Badger 5 certainly wouldn't.

I'm also not 100% sure how far you can wind things up before you start putting the gearbox at real risk. I've heard 300bhp but I'm sure things like driving style and stuff play a part in that too. Remember the input side of the 02B gearbox is the same as an 02A (early Golfs etc.). The 02B diff is bigger and stronger.

Todays' tasks are:

Discuss / book rolling road
Confirm date for LPG installation.
Start learning more about the adaptive mapping side of the Emerald ECU.
 

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Really interesting to hear more about the conversion and see photos if you dont mind showing the technical details.


Ive used adaptive mapping on standalone ECUs before, with limited success, the idea was you specified the mixture you wanted and the ECU used the wideband lambda to map to that. Emerald is a much better system and technology has moved on, so hopefully its got better, again interested to hear your feedback on that (although I wont be running an emerald, Im a big fan of standard management -out of interest, why did you go aftermarket?

Good call on the cable throttle btw, I drove a fly-by AGU golf at the weekend and the throttle response was awful, noticeable delay in power delivery after Ive brought the clutch up and mashed the pedal to the floor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Ive used adaptive mapping on standalone ECUs before, with limited success, the idea was you specified the mixture you wanted and the ECU used the wideband lambda to map to that. Emerald is a much better system and technology has moved on, so hopefully its got better, again interested to hear your feedback on that (although I wont be running an emerald, Im a big fan of standard management -out of interest, why did you go aftermarket?
Sounds interesting.

I originally was going to go with QPeng. Very simple and straight forward but a few discussions here and there I later decided to go with Emerald on several fronts, flexibility being one big part of it.

1. With the switchable maps I can have a economy map and a silly map

2. Again the switchable maps (you get 3 in all) allows me to have an LPG specific map whereby the timing etc. can be advanced to suit the high octane rating of LPG (108 I believe) That way I can hopefully avoid some of the power drop issues associated with slaving off a standard map. I'm still looking into how it will all work exactly but i'm liking the possibility of having LPG running at the same MPG as the equivalent petrol map. You normally lose 10% power and your economy goes down too.

3. before I started the van had no ECU whatsoever. Basically it's a fat Mk1 or early Mk2 Golf. Something had to go in there! Also having an ECU that's just designed to be completely dedicated to the engine and not other stuff such as immobilisers etc. seemed a good idea at the time.

4. I can plug it in myself (you get all the software) and you can see exactly what's going on. You can even tweek it if you want. Would I be right in saying that with OEM, you get it mapped by someone else and that's it. You're done unless you go back to them?

5. here's a clever one. Emerald can vary boost levels in accordance with what gear your in, engine speed and or load. I was thinking with the short ratios of the T4 box (even the DUJ code) I can run less boost at in lower gears and build from there. Basically less stress on the block itself and less risk of just sitting still when trying to deliver 250bhp through the front wheels in first.

6. My LPG man said he's worked with Emerald before and even knows the guys up there.

Now I wouldn't say it's straight forward unless you have soem experince of 20v's and Emerald itself. Each engine is slightly different and in my case it's taken a while to get to the bottom of what's going on, how you adjust for X, Y and Z and get it running somewhere near right.

oh yes I forgot to add that a cable throttle just keeps things simple. No need to do things to the pedal box and all that. I can also add a little screw to manually set the idle speed if we're running a bit slow. Touch and go on that front at the moment.
 

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Wow Noo Noo just read thread from start to end and what a great thread and what a big change .

From changing a 1800 cc lump for another and not going down the injection route due to the elecy bits to a full change to a turbo and ecu mapping, boy you have come along way .

Look forward to the piccys

PS I like the inside fitting to, the pull out gas hob is fuffing great T: and nice to see you made a bit of room for a speaker or twoLOL:

The only down side to this thread is you have p1 ssed me off with how little I have done to my shabby bus LOL:

I call mine a ratty at the moe just because I cant admit to it been a heap LOL:

Keep up the good stuff fella T:
 

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The problem I ran into with dynamic mapping is I figured that as Im fairly bright, pretty good with electronics and computers and have read the books and the internet, I'd be able to map a car. After a year I went back to standard - it turns out that you need lots of experience to get it right too! I think if you had it set up, and then left it to self fine tune it could work pretty well.

1. I've discussed this idea with mappers on NA cars and they said that a decent map should give both power and economy - however on a turbo car the idea of a low-boost map makes a lot of sense. When theres snow on the ground, you probably dont really need 300bhp!

2. Isnt the LPG map determined by the LPG ecu? Or does the LPG ecu just fiddle whatever the petrol injectors are showing?

3. Adding a standard ECU to a car that has no ecu is totally doable, and I really like the diagnostic features you get with vagcom. Besides, having an imobiliser seems like a handy way to stop my van disappearing one night! Each to their own, Im just replying for completeness.

4. Yeh unless you are a mapper of OEM ecus, you basically are stuck with the map thats on it. In some respects this is a good thing - VW probably spent 300 hours mapping the AGU ecu, emerald will probably spend 12mapping yours - but in others its really nice being able to look at the map and see exactly what your engine is doing at a certain load point. My general rule is that if you're only going to run a standard engine, then you should go standard ECU, if you're going to fiddle with it and upgrade it over time, then go aftermarket, as its much more cost effective to get that remapped rather than multiple remaps on the standard ecu.

5. Thats really cool!

6. Always a smart move to work with the tech that your fitters are familiar with, and Dave Walker is a very good mapper. Probably the only aftermarket ECU guy I'd use (assuming I couldnt justify the extra £1000 to go with a motec at Powerstation). My ex had a GTI6 on bodies running emerald and it was the only car I've driven with aftermarket management that worked well enough for use all year round and reliably idled.


How did you do the NS engine mount? I've got one and offered it up to a 20v at the weekend, and it looks like it *might* fit, with a bit of finessing. Also, did you find a nice off the shelf solution for the sump/oil pickup, or did you go custom?
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Cheers Cosmic.

yes huge learning curve and I've had a heaps of help particularly on the 20v front. Especially with the fitting as the electrics still scare the eebegeebies out of me and the amount of custom parts involved means I've gone and got help to get it done.

D-9
The LPG ECU will slave off the engine ECU correct. How exactly they interact and will help with advancing timing etc. I'm still trying to work out myself. I also need to understand how each ECU will switch as well. The Prins system starts on petrol before switching over. So I'm still very much on the learning curve there.

Low boost map makes a huge amount of sense for me when I do my regular motorway run between Reading and North Wales. Map for max economy please. (same with LPG please)

Nearside engine mount. All will be revealed soon as will the changes to the PAS pump which sits very low in its 20v OEM position.

The sump I was extremely lucky with. I bought Tonic's old one which had been modified by the Phirm. He no longer needed it when he went syncro. The oil pick up is custom.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 · (Edited)
Ok I now have the van back.

VW connections have done an awesome job on the engine. More on that shortly. I've spent the weekend cleaning, more cleaning, getting the back together plus some more developments in the cab area. Hopefully I'm very near a position where I can finally use it.

First of all the back bumper. Something different and way better than the OEM 3 piece ones on early vans in my opinion. Not as solid unfortunately, as is the case with fibreglass but the look is better. Not crazy deep either like many bodykit bumpers you can get. Polished bumper protector also added and nice fat twin exhausts. Stainless steel system of course. Nice rumble to it. A:




Not quite there but here's a couple of pictures of my cab.

Saab 93 leather seats
Wood Momo Steering wheel
Flocked dash, A pillars
Waeco Coolfreeze which I've painted black and flocked the lid.
DIY centre console. Not quite finished as I need to mount the AFR guage. I'll also be mounting other guages here.
I also need to make a gaiter for the gearstick. I've got the material so that's tonights effort maybe.
Job for later will be lifting the handbrake. It's a bit of a squeeze at the moment.
I've a new head unit to go in as well.



 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Peeka boo




BAM sorry AGU!!





Given that Butty Bus a nice trundle back from VW Connections to Reading / Maidenhead on Friday night. The fueling is off, and it's running rich at the moment so I've got keep trying to trim the fuel right through the range. It's not easy but I'm slowly getting it closer but it ultimately means rolling road. If I have any criticism of Emerald it is the initial set up. Not that easy unless you're really clued up on it. Pretty sure the ECU came with the wrong map to begin with and even then it was way off. Partly due to the variable nature of tuned 1.8t's I guess. It's also a little confusing how you make sure the map is actually saved onto the ECU. Finally it doesn't seem to have any real diagnostics which might make problem finding a bit more difficult in the future. It does however tell you everything that's going on with the engine. Hard part is understanding it. However, fair play to the Steve's at VW Connections they got it close, and running very well without the experience of the ECU or a rolling road. But the Butty Bus has left two big black marks on the back wall of the garage though I: LOL:

I can't thank the guys enough. The build is A1.

Coming back it's such a joy to drive. It sits ever so comfortably on the motorway and has plenty of power for overtaking. I booted it a little on the services slip road and it's simply daft. When mapped it's going to have the potential to be mental but the biggest joy for me was simply cruising with it. It's such a step up from the previous engine. A very good decision to hunt down a DUJ code gearbox for this. The SPEC clutch is also great. It's still bedding in, but it's light under foot so I don't need to be a Hungarian shoot putter to drive it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
here's a bit more info

Drivers side engine mount. The Steve's decided to use the original mounting arm and mount with some tweaks. Works very well I must say. Pictures are a bit unclear unfortunately.





PAS pump hase been lifted well out of the way



Intercooler mounted behind the bumper.



I need to add some holes to it to improve the airflow.



There we go. I'll have some more pictures of the inside and ceiling shortly.
 

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Looks awesome, I had problems with the map supplied. Dave has a mk1 golf with a BAM engine and we started with that map.
Unfortunately we had very different throttle bodies so the fueling was way off. I had also run one of the breather pipes wrong so air was getting past the throttle body so would not idle properly. A few hours with Dave's magic fingers though and she was a different animal. The drive home was so much more fun.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
Oh and welcome to the 20v club T:
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Looks awesome, I had problems with the map supplied. Dave has a mk1 golf with a BAM engine and we started with that map.
Unfortunately we had very different throttle bodies so the fueling was way off. I had also run one of the breather pipes wrong so air was getting past the throttle body so would not idle properly. A few hours with Dave's magic fingers though and she was a different animal. The drive home was so much more fun.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
Oh and welcome to the 20v club T:
Cheers guys. At last, It's been quite a battle on all fronts to get here.

hmm sounds ominously similar to some of thr troubles we've had.

I've got mine to idle quite nicely now mind. Initially the over fueling was a problem as was the idle speed. I've trimmed the fuel back some more and it seems far happier there. Still got sooty plugs though so more tweaks needed.
 
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